ringen/wrestling

[JeffGentry]

I am wondering what thought's people have as too the value of ringen/wrestling on the art of longsword and how much value does it have in cross over to foot work, feeling, and perception(seeing opening's) in the fight?

Also how much time do people spend just working on the pass behind, and take down's(such as single and double leg), how to avoid and stuff the afore mentioned or full speed wrestling such as they do in high school college?


Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

Alles fechten kompf vom ringen.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Casper

Alles fechten kompf vom ringen.

I am going to take that as meaning not alot of time spent just doing ringen/wrestling with out a weapon.


Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

Heh, I meant it the opposite. It is the foundation of my training, and I try to encourage it.
I'm fighting against my biggest pet peeve in RMA right now, that it's becoming synonimous with weaponry, particularly the longsword, which I think is quite a deviation from any original training scheme.

[Jay Vail]

I'm fighting against my biggest pet peeve in RMA right now, that it's becoming synonimous with weaponry, particularly the longsword, which I think is quite a deviation from any original training scheme.

It seems that most people who gravitate toward the historical EMA do so because they want to learn "swordfighting," which they've admired since they were kids watching Robin Hood on the tellie.

However, the old masters advocated, as Caspar points out, a more wholistic system founded on wrestling. We shouldn't forget that. We cannot possibly know better than they what a warrior needs to prepare him for battle.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Casper

Heh, I meant it the opposite. It is the foundation of my training, and I try to encourage it.
I'm fighting against my biggest pet peeve in RMA right now, that it's becoming synonimous with weaponry, particularly the longsword, which I think is quite a deviation from any original training scheme.

Sorry thought you meant all fighting is wrestling, meaning that swordfighting is ringen, it seem's the more i do the longsword thing the more i see the need to do more of the basic wrestling not just the "cool" throw's and arm lock's those are good to know, i don't see how we can do all the other thing's if we don't know basic's.

It seem's like this forum(unarmed art) is under used am not real sure why.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

Its definatly necessary.

we have instituted some grappling drills to build up some of the attributes necessary to grappling while doing weapons sparring.
Specifically we do 2 main drills now which I have taken from modern grappling arts.
The Sumo drill and the Pummelling drill, each of which develops great standing grappling attributes both for wqeapons sparring and unarmed combat.

In addition i am slowly introducing concepts from my Pankration reconstruction, specifically the Clinch work.
Soon we will also include some clinch drills and takedown defense drills to supplement. Unfortunatly we are a bit limited by not having a good grappling surface.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

It is the core of a good fighter if you ask me, not just from an endurance/ fitness standpoint but also form a tactical understanding standpoint. Balance, speed, power, all atributes of a good fighter. We are spending much more time with this and I am thinking about joining a Ju jitsu club to gain more understanding of these techniques.

Gary and I have been training in these groundfighting skills with an expirenced grappler learning the mount, guard, clinch, etc....all very important concepts for any martial artist.

[Mike Cartier]

training in Brazilian ju jitsu is definatly the best way to work on the ground skills. They are the kings of the ground phase, I have been training at a BJJ school for just over a year now.

When you put BJJ together with boxing, kickboxing and wrestling you get the truly well rounded fighter, skilled in all the phases of the fight. Jujitsu also pioneered the whole "phases of the fight" concept , a truly revolutionary concept in much the same way as many of Bruce Lee's concepts were revolutionary.

[Jake_Norwood]

When you put BJJ together with boxing, kickboxing and wrestling you get the truly well rounded fighter, skilled in all the phases of the fight.

This, plus some weapons work, is *exactly* the 3-tier Army Modern Combatives program.

I started working ringen into my regular training 2 or 3 years ago. I love it. It makes a big difference in everything. It is foolish to train RMA without it.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

Can you tell us about BJJ's format of the phases?

[Jake_Norwood]

I'll one-up ya. I'll teach it to you this saturday.

But, for those of you that won't be in Provo for the big event...

BJJ is the basis for the Army's Modern Combatives groudfighting phase, which happens to be "Level One." It consists of learning the 4 dominant positions, followed by learning how to achieve them. This is integrated into 3 drills, at least the first of which are pretty standard in Gracie BJJ, IIRC. Then several basic submissions, armbars, and reversals are taught, followed by achieving the clinch and then takedowns (while a Seargent beats on your head with his fists...). That's the bulk of the BJJ in the system. Level Two, incorporates more takedowns from western wrestling and BJJ and lots of striking from Kickboxing and regular Boxing. Level three continues in that direction, incorporating weapons fighting from Kali and Arnis and quite a bit of direct ARMA influence. No joke.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Hey folk's

I have been doing some research into catch wrestling, which was popular in the late 19th century early 20th from my understanding.


Myself and Jaron are incorporating more and more ringen/wrestling into our training and it does seem to be helping.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

Can you tell us about BJJ's format of the phases?

The phases of the fight are simple and form the basis of the modern sport of Mixed Martial Aarts MMA / No Holds Barred NHB fighting.

The 3 phases are
Free movement phase, Clinch phase and Ground phase.

The difference between the phases of the fight and say the ranges theory (punching range, kicking range etc) is that a fight strategy can be built around the phase of a fight.

The free movement phase is the main striking phase and is dominated by footwork, thats where kickboxing rules.
Once the fighters touch they clinch up, in clinch phase grappling and striking equally dominate.

The last phase is the ground phase and this is the phase that BJJ seeks to master, because those with no training in this phase are like fish out of water. On the ground all the free movement phase striking is negated to the point of being useless (striking is also muffled in clinch phase too)
The ground phase is dominated by positional dominance on . Using leverage to apply submissions or to strike.

The concept of the phases of the fight is superior to the concept of ranges because you can keep the fight in a phase where you cannot keep the fight in a range. The concept of ranges belongs in the free movement phase.

Good strikers learn clinch and ground phase to keep the fight standing where they can win by striking. A wrestler or BJJ guy will seek to go to the ground phase. Mastering clinch phase is important to be able to stay on your feet, ground phase skills are necessary to survive long enough to get back to your feet.

The Book Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie is the Tao of JKD of todays martial arts world. Its a book i highly recommend to anyone interested in this subject.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

The 3 phases are
Free movement phase, Clinch phase and Ground phase.

Meyer 1570

This can be advanced in three stages and be organized thus, namely as the Start, the Middle and the End, where the three stages each have one aim which you shall fence through, and must do one by one to advance,

This seem's very similar to what you are saying, and can be applied to most fighting even unarmed, and he called them stage's not range's, maybe over time thing's have just become confused it happen's.

Jeff

Just my musing and HO