Unterhalten

[Jake_Norwood]

Groundfighting, in recent years, is all the rage. It's also a very important element of unarmed combat, especially when we're dealing with one-on-one scenarios (arena fighting, duels, solo streetfights, etc.).

In the recent RMA/MMA thread some of Ringeck's techniques came up, as well as some comments about "all this works on the ground." I would like this thread to be a collection and a discussion of RIngen (and Abrazarre) groundfighting techniques and principles. Please use sources (web or in print, but please quote) when introducing techniques. I would love to put together a "Principles of Unterhalten" document at some point, starting here as a reference.

Jake

[Jay Vail]

Jake,

Talhoffer, 1459, shows some ground fighting: notably a full nelson, a guy sitting on another in something resembling the “top mount,” and another guy sitting on a guy’s back, pulling his head back in which may be intended as a neck break. Unfortunately Brian Hunt’s translation does not extend to this part of the manuscript, so we cannot know for certain what is intended.

Other pictures in the 1459 do not display ground fighting techniques, as we are accustomed to thinking about them, but rather show one guy killing the other with a dagger. Gladiatoria has some of the same. In fact all of the Gladiatoria plates published on the ARMA website that depict ground work show it in the context of dagger use against a grounded man.

Talhoffer 1567 (Rector’s translation) shows men on the ground, notably plate 202, which shows the completion of ringen’s uchi mata version. It is silent about what happens next, however. Plate 189 shows two men on the ground, one stabbing the other with a dagger.

The Codex Wallerstein has a few pictures of men on the ground, plate 145 (in which one guy is holding two guys down with his feet; can’t be taken seriously), 146 (a guy kneeling on a guy’s back and pulling his head back by the hair), and 147 (a guy holding three captured men). Groundwork techniques in the Codex thus are few. In fact, they are outnumbered by the techniques against the face punch (of which there are at least 10).

Leafing through my collection of works, I can find very few that address ground work in any meaningful way. My search today however was not a comprehensive survey.

This dearth of groundfighting in ringen has been a source of angst for the ground fighting enthusiasts among us for some time, and as the recent discussions on the other thread have shown, it has excited both bewilderment and high emotion.

Gene’s suggestion, citing his Chinese wrestling teacher, is an old one we have heard before: that men in the old days didn’t fight on the ground much because they were worried on the battlefield about the opponent’s friends, who could easily intervene. I think that’s partly true.

I’ve witnessed probably 35-40 street altercations over the years of varying degrees of intensity, from push and shoves to punchouts in which the participants intended to do each other serious harm. Some of these alternations went to the ground, some did not. From this admittedly unscientific survey, I drew one major conclusion: in the real world of street defense, wrestling on the ground is not desirable.

The objective of wrestling on the ground is the submission of the opponent through holds and chokes. These take too long to achieve in many instances, require too much strength, and force you to concentrate on a single opponent at the expense of others who may be there for safety in a really dangerous situation.

This is not to say that wrestling moves are not helpful. They most certainly are. But in the really serious fights I have seen, where the participants were seriously intent on harming each other, the ground wrestling portion of the altercation was used only to the point where one of the players achieved a dominant position (often the “top mount”) and pounded the other guy’s head in with blows. In every instance I can recall, once one guy got the top mount and started pounding away, the fight was over. So, in the real world of serious fighting “in earnest” as Doebringer would say, men do not seem to use wrestling except as a subsidiary means to the ultimate end of delivering decisive blows.

Second, Gene’s observation that on the ground you are in danger of the intervention of the opponent’s friends is absolutely true. I have seen this happen more than once, with harmful consequences. I have also seen bystanders intervene as well.

These two factors may explain why there is so little focus in the fightbooks on ground fighting. The old masters simply did not think it was that necessary. Wrestling is good fun, good sport, and good training, but when your life and well-being are on the line, ground work is a minor a part of the art of defense.

Of course another possible explanation is that the old masters were intent on transmitting techniques for fighting in earnest, not for sport, and there was plenty of sport wrestling out there, which most men practiced, so they were familiar with it and did not need a book on it.

Regards, JV

[Andrew Kesterson]

In every instance I can recall, once one guy got the top mount and started pounding away, the fight was over. So, in the real world of serious fighting “in earnest” as Doebringer would say, men do not seem to use wrestling except as a subsidiary means to the ultimate end of delivering decisive blows.

I agree, in real street fights, ground fighting is an even more brief affair than a standing fight. People who do lots of ground fighting, in my opinion, put way too much emphasis on wrestling, and not nearly enough emphasis on how to get out from under someone and stand up again.

The (general) rule is that he who goes down first, usually stays there.

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jake,

Mair shows some ground fighting, however it is always used in a one on one situation. He has plates in unarmoured and armoured longsword, staff, dagger, and ringen where they are on the ground. However, most of Mair's wrestling involves throwing the other man down and doing him in while he is on the ground and you remain standing.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jake_Norwood]

Yeah, that's almost always how it is. One on one, or only one on the ground.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

A great deal of manuals, showing two men in a standing clinch or technique, are showing techniques that are commonly used now to bring the opponent to the ground with the person initiating it going down with him and ending in a dominant position. Some are obvious, but some are either arguable or dual-purpose.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

Great subject, I will be more aware of the Unterhalten from now on when looking at manuel's, I don't have refrence for it right now and you probably know how to use a key lock on the ground, I haven't seen it in a manuel though, The kimura? of MMA use is a reverse keylock on the ground when you are on the bottom though, I doubt the RMA's didn't know that, and you can also do the normal Keylock from the top mount, I think you did mount Jaron and put a keylock on Jaron at your 1.0 last year.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi guys,

I got this from:

http://www.schielhau.org/liechtenauer-armoured1.html


61 r

Ain gůt underhalden

/ Merck | wurfstu ÿn nÿder | und er velt auf den pauch | So sitz grittling hinden auf ÿn nahent zu seinen schultteren | und zeuch ym sein rechten arm~ uber dein rechts pain uber dein diech | und sein lincken arm~ zeuch über dein lincks diech | So mag er nicht auf chömen | und mues also under dir sterben

A good hold down

/ Mark | if you throw him down | and he falls onto his belly | Then sit down on his back near his shoulders | and wrench his right arm over your right leg over your thigh | and wrench his left arm over your left thigh | Thus he can not come up | and so must die under you

Aber ein underhalden

Merck würfstu In nÿder | und er velt auf den ruck | So val ÿm mit dem leib die twirch uber sein antlütz | und vass yn peÿ dem hals under einen armen | und halt In also vest | und mit der anderen hant ruck ym den armen aus | Do mit er sich behelffen wil | So mag er nicht aufchömen | und arbait mit dem degen

Yet a hold down

Mark if you throw him down | and he falls on his back | then let your body fall with the midsection over his face | and trap his neck under one arm | and thus hold him fast | and pull his arm out with the other hand | the one with which he wants to help himself | So he won't come out | and work with the dagger


This sounds a hell of a lot like groundwork to me. And it looks like there is a bunch more material like that where you and your opponent are both on the ground and you work described techniques from there.

I have changed my previous view. I just finished reading a bunch of similarly described ground fighting techniques from Danzig. IMO Ringen does involve groundwork. Maybe not the "roll around for 10 minutes" variety, but definitely of the "go to the ground WITH your opponent and kill him by ground based techniques".

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

I have changed my previous view. I just finished reading a bunch of similarly described ground fighting techniques from Danzig. IMO Ringen does involve groundwork. Maybe not the "roll around for 10 minutes" variety, but definitely of the "go to the ground WITH your opponent and kill him by ground based techniques".

It is MO a good portion of the time when you throw someone if they resist you will go down with them, or when they throw you you, you take them down with you, unless the thrown person is caught totaly by surprise which doesn't happen often.

So why not include some ground work it is not where you want to be, it is something that is not uncommon though, and you need to end it very quickly.

Jeff

[Dave Nathan]

Lol, "kill them while on the ground."

The only way to do this would be with a neck-break, choke, or blade used to stab of some sort, which are all taught in the standard of modern ground fighting, such as BJJ or submission wrestling, minus the knife.

The only reason many bouts last so long in modern grappling is because both opponents know how to defend themselves. BJJ fighters in the early UFC's (which had very, very few rules) dominated because no one knew how to defend their attacks. Royce Gracie would routinely submit skilled strikers and wrestlers in less than a minute, and nearly half a minute. He wasn't even the best in his family at that time either!

[philippewillaume]

Is Ringeck the only one to hint on how wrestling should go ?
(i did not see stuff like that any where else)

This what the text says
Von mort stossen: der erst.
About the murder stike the first
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. Then engage him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up (ligen can have the idea of accepting the technique as in blending with it and raising up to go against.)

Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden, obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so you find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins), upper techniques (gepurt=puren= machen untersuchen. In reine bringen) and auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}


That beind said the conversation made me think that i need to check the ringeck manuscript.

phil
guess what there is no coma so i think that is a better translation
Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are superior/ straightforward/chiefly reasearched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

[philippewillaume]

this is ringeck unterhalten, they are normal un-armoured wrestling (there is no unterhalten in armour with ringeck)
Daß erst vnderhalten.
The first immobilisation
Gryff in dem ringen mitt diner rechten hand an sinen rechten (71 r )arm hinder siner rechten hand, vnd gryff mitt diner lincken hand an sinen elnbogen; vnnd leg sin arm jn din arm, vnd tritt hinder in, vnd halt in föst.Haust du in nicht gefölt, so begriff im syn rechten fuß vnder den wadenmitt diner gerechten hand; vnd wirff in vff die nasen. Vnd halt in mitt baidenhenden oder mitt ainer, wie du wilt, oder magst och zu der anderen handthun. Sonder Wechsel din hand an sinen arm.

In Wrestling, grab with your right hand at his right arm behind his right hand; Put your left hand at his elbow. Lay his arm in your arm and step behind and hold still attached{hold him fast}/ (i.e. still holding him)/. Has (haust=hast or may be the same idea as dwell in English) he not fallen (gefolt=faellen) So engage him at his right foot under the calves with your straightened/right/appropriate hand and toss him on his nose and hold with both grip/holds/hands or with one, as you like or you may take the other hand. But (in this case) change your hand at his arm

Das ander vnderhalten.
The second under pin down
Wirffest du ain vff den ruck, so fall im mitt dem lincken kny (71 v ) vff denrechten arm mitten in dem glencke. Vnd fall im mitt dem lincken arm jn sinhalß, vnd druck in hart. Vnnd begryff im sin lincke hand mitt diner rechten, vnd bring im sin lincke in din rechte hand; vnd fasß in den mitt diner linckenhand: so magstu im thon mitt der rechten, waß du wilt. - Daß magst du ochthon zu der lincken sytten.

Should you throw one onto the back/turn. So strike/fall with the left knee off his right arm middle in the articulation and fall with the left arm at his throat neck/and press hard. And grab his left hand with you right. And bring the left hand in your right in order to grab it with your left so that you may do what you want with the right. You may do that as well on/at the left side

Daß dritt vnderhalten.
The third Pin down
Item, so du ain magst werften vff den ruck, in dem selben begryff im baidebain vnder dem kny mitt baiden (72 r) henden; vnd heb im die bain vff, sodu höchst känst, vnd fall mitt baiden knyen zwischen sine bain vff sin hoden;vnd /üg, daß du mitt ainer hand sine bayde bayn gehalten magst, so erwerstdu mitt der anderen hand nach dinem willen.

Item So you may throw one upon/onto the back /turn. {So you may be thrown by on onto the back/turn} In the same/self movement grab at both legs/ under the knee with either/both grip/hands, and lift his legs so you can rise and fall onto/strike (auf fallen) with either/both knees inside his leg (between his legs) upon/off his bollocks and ??, that you may hold the either/both leg with one hand , so you can accord your other hand to your will. (I.e. do what you want with it)

[Troy Hammermann]

Jay Vail wrote:
"The Codex Wallerstein has a few pictures of men on the ground, plate 145 (in which one guy is holding two guys down with his feet; can’t be taken seriously),..."

Out of curiosity, why not?

[Dave Nathan]

Could any man less than 600 lbs. of muscle hold down two grown men with his feet? I hope not. Otherwise, I might just decide to stay inside today <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.

[Troy Hammermann]

Have you seen the plate in question?