A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

European historical unarmed fighting techniques & methods

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David_Knight
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A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby David_Knight » Mon May 30, 2005 11:45 am

It recently occured to me that we are debating the merits of groundfighting without considering it in the proper contexts, and our training as a whole is suffering.

Most opposition to groundfighting hinges upon the presence of daggers or other enemies on the battlefield, while pro-grappling arguments are usually based on the premise that there are no daggers or multiple opponents.

But groundfighting in the midst of a 20,000-man battle wearing full armor cannot be logically compared to grappling against an unarmoured opponent in a judicial duel under predetermined conditions. This debate has not ceased because we are arguing about two very, very different things while considering it all the same. It is not!

A distinction desperately needs to be made between the battle-oriented knightly manuals such as Fiori and Gladiatoria, and those that depict ringen between civilians who are unarmed or have been disarmed and do not have daggers, presumably within the context of judicial duels or one-on-one streetfights, such as the Codex Wallerstein and Paulus Hector Mair.

The former manuals advocate throwing the enemy and dispatching him with your weapon while you remain standing, but the latter ones clearly depict groundfighting techniques. Thus one may conclude that groundfighting was not ideal for mass combat, but totally viable in other circumstances. Mair describes numerous takedowns, both standing and from the ground, as well as submissions; some of these flow from weapon disarms, while you willingly discard your weapon for others. The Codex Wallerstein explicitly shows submissions on the ground (see Plates 146-147) and takedowns that can easily end with both figures on the ground (see Plate 115, and then see how it works for me in my second staff bout against Mike C. in this video: http://www.paulushectormair.com/ARMA/2005%20ARMA%20Florida%20Highlights.wmv ). Others have pointed out that many of the techniques in this manual are just as effective on the ground as they are standing.

As an organization dedicated to resurrecting all of the late medieval/Renaissance arts, I believe that we should train for standing throws and groundfighting, as they are both martially sound in their respective contexts.

With that in mind, it also occured to me that those in ARMA who focus on the "armoured battlefield" aspects of the art may not be training that way; most sparring is one-on-one, so both fighters follow artificial rules to simulate fighting multiple opponents (i.e. "you were thrown so you automatically lose"). Instead, we should be training for the battlefield aspect of RMA by sparring in groups, so that a fighter who is thrown quickly learns the value of recovering, and a grappling-oriented individual such as myself learns to stay on his feet whenever possible. Moreover, this would surely reveal other bad habits from the dueling mindset that do not translate well to mass combat (the common practice of endlessly circling in the zufechten would surely go ex fenestra, you'd learn to watch for wild "friendly strikes", you'd learn to keep your balance when accidentally bumped or tripped, you'd learn that managing to retain your longsword in a takedown is useless without the leverage to penetrate his armor, etc.).

Reciprocally, we should continue to train for non-battlefield combat as we have been (one-on-one), only incorporating greater realism into the ringen by deciding beforehand whether or not daggers are involved, carrying padded daggers if they are, and fighting to the finish instead of naively assuming that the dominant person always wins.

Otherwise we fall into the same trap as many of the EMA styles who had dismissed groundfighting until their fighters were humbled by grapplers in MMA tourneys. We should be training for every possibility; surely our ancestors did not bet their lives on assumptions.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Brian Hunt » Mon May 30, 2005 2:14 pm

Since we are concentrating on ground fighting in this thread, I must point out that gound fighting in a judical combat did happen in armour. Look at the 1443 Talhoffer manual where a judical combat is dipicted from the entrance of the combatants, to the start of the fight, through to the finish where one man is finished on the ground by a dagger up under his helm.

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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby JeffGentry » Mon May 30, 2005 2:37 pm

Hey David

I totaly agree, i think we do need to train Unarmed one on one in order to be comfortable with it, And keep in mind we are trying to do great bodily harm as quickly as we can how ever we can not just trying to tap a guy out.

Here is to me the fascinating story of DeJarnac's duel in 1547, Illustrating in my mind how seriously wrestling was taken in that time period(remember this is a duel) I think it is a good illustration of wrestling prowess without wrestling.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/DOTC.htm

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Mike Cartier
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Mike Cartier » Mon May 30, 2005 3:38 pm

Don't forget Jeff that the tap usually comes from a technique that brings either limb threatening pressure to a joint or a debilitating choke so great bodliy harm is being threatened and actually felt if they tap. Submission techniques that rely on pain exclusively are not universally effective because people have different pain tolerance levels. However a broken arm or leg is a broken arm or leg, and a choke is a choke.

Armbars and ankle locks can not always be considered fight enders though, you might pop a guys arm and he would keep fighting even though his ligaments are popped, although he will be in much pain the next day its not going to be a fight ender in all situations. The popping of someones arm or ankle will certainly reduce thier ability to use it on you though.
Guillotine or Rear naked chokes are my personal favorite and submission from multiple undefended strikes. When we do Pankration I also like the knee bar which can setup a leg break. pankration has a few standing armbars that are very effective too.
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JeffGentry
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby JeffGentry » Mon May 30, 2005 5:29 pm

Hey Mike

Don't forget Jeff that the tap usually comes from a technique that brings either limb threatening pressure to a joint or a debilitating choke so great bodliy harm is being threatened and actually felt if they tap.


I do agree, just remember that when an oppertunity is presented to maybe smash there face into the ground instead of a choke(this is only one example) why waste the time on a choke instead of finishing him quickly.

See the diffrence in the mind set?

I would go for smashing his face, even on soft ground it is still going to disorient him very quickly and you could stand much faster if you want to as opposed to tying your hand's around his neck leaving you helpless if other's appraoch and he isn't out yet.

Just my warped opinion.

Jeff

P.S. No i have not seen the hair grab face smash into the ground technique in any manuel, although if i thought of it i'm pretty sure they did too though i'm not that smart.
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Mike Cartier » Mon May 30, 2005 9:39 pm

why waste the time on a choke instead of finishing him quickly.


agreed
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue May 31, 2005 4:56 am

That is something interesting I noticed in ringen last sunday. I was several times in position to try a choke. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't but invariably it took a while to get the choke to "sink in" in which my opponent had lots of time to do stuff. While that may be more a reflection on my lack of rassling skills than the efficiency of the choke, it occurred to me that I was also in position for a much faster neck break in each of those cases.

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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby TimSheetz » Tue May 31, 2005 6:06 am

Hi Guys,



"I would go for smashing his face, even on soft ground "



I like this.. I have always been fond of this sort of thinking ever since my formative sparring experiences vs. my Dad specifically the time when he held me down on my back as he pulled off my helmet and "beat me in the head" with it.... I called all sorts of 'foul' but got the standard, "Hey, its on the battlefield."

AH, what a fun childhood... :-)

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Tue May 31, 2005 2:28 pm

Sorry to repeat myself, but this thread is better to mention this here (it appears in Fiore thread as well):

I would point out that Talhoffer-1467, when there is "ground-work" in the specifically Ringen part, he tends to call it, perhaps a bit mockingly, *Bubenringen* (knaves or boys wrestling). Yet at same time, he does show practical application of one of the *Buben* techniques in the pollaxe fencing section, so he probably would have us realise that down-on-ground has its time and place.

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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby JeffGentry » Tue May 31, 2005 10:37 pm

Hey Jeff

*Bubenringen* (knaves or boys wrestling)


I am not a big student of Fiore i have looked at his ringen on a couple occasion's and do remember that.

Working from the clinch is more diffcult, I did end up throwing people from a clich position for the simple fact I was a little clueless working in the clinch.

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David_Knight
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby David_Knight » Tue May 31, 2005 11:23 pm

Yet at same time, he does show practical application of one of the *Buben* techniques in the pollaxe fencing section, so he probably would have us realise that down-on-ground has its time and place.

I will have to check that out. It is interesting that both Mair and Talhoffer incorporate bubenringen into their polearms systems, presumably because, unlike a longsword, there is little you can do with a 6' halberd once you're on the ground.

Again, different weapons, different contexts.

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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby leam hall » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:03 am

Tim scribeth: "I like this.. I have always been fond of this sort of thinking ever since my formative sparring experiences vs. my Dad specifically the time when he held me down on my back as he pulled off my helmet and "beat me in the head" with it. "


That would explain a lot of things... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
ciao!

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TimSheetz
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby TimSheetz » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:46 am

Leam,

Well it really was a formative experience... and now I try to help others get a similar one... ;-)

Peace,

Tim
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Mike Cartier
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Mike Cartier » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:38 pm

not sure if i have posted this on this forum since i made the article, but it is somewhat relevant to this discussion, here is my article on
Pankration Ground Fighting
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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: A Context for the Groundfighting Debate

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:11 am

I'll just chime in on the aspect of ground fighting in armoured combat. It was not only common, but probably the norm. In order to kill or disbale an armoured man, you are almost certainly going to have to throw him violently to the ground, and probably hold him there while you make your finishing move, which is likely to come from your dagger. Hopefully he'll be kind of stunned or at least disoriented from the throw and you can seize the intiative, fall on him quickly and dispatch him. All the armoured fighting manuscripts I've seen at least imply this and some are quite specific about it. Gladiatoria, for instance shows a series of "holdings", which are nothing more than ways to control your opponent on the ground while you search for a soft spot in which to insert your dagger.

This page shows the "holdings"

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladiatoria/Gladiatorie_part6.htm
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