The Ignorance of Western Martial Arts

[Jeremy Martin]

Hello all. I am posting here because I've gotten into several arguments about Western Martial Arts(unarmed combat being the main argument usually) on the internet(yes I know, arguing on the internet). The problem is, while I believe I'm more informed on the subject than a lot of people, I don't really know enough to point to particular examples to back-up my claims. This gets to me because I really dislike the ignorance most people have about their own heritage. Here's an example of somethings that a person has said on another board. It's pretty close to what a lot of people say.

"For the record Pyre1 western martial arts are nothing like Ninjutsu or Jujutsu. These two arts in particular make up the bulk of all special forces hand to hand training because they are superior to any other martial arts in their brutal effectivness.It is always the eastern martial arts that these units turn to for their training because they are the best forms of unarmed combat.

Western martial arts had their place in western combat, and they provided an advantage for those who knew them, over those who were not trained to fight. They however are not an equal match for their potential or effectivness compared to arts like Ninjutsu or Jujutsu."

"It's through working as a law enforcment officer, having contact with special forces groups, studdying specific arts in detail and spending several years of my life training people how to deffend themselves that I make my comments.

Your thoughts on disarming further show your lack of knowledge on this matter, the first priority for anyone who knows anything about fighting is to disarm your attacker if you have no weapon yourself. Further more disarming is one of the easiest things you can do once you know how. The body mechanics of the wrist and hands can be easily manipulated with the right applications of force, which make it impossible for even a very stong person to continue holding their weapon."

Now what I'm asking for are particular examples of historic manuals, modern articles, names of western unarmed combat, or anything else that I might use as specific examples to counter their claims.

I haven't been around the boards or this site long, so I apologize for not knowing these things myself. Any help that you can provide so I can enlighten the masses would be appreciated. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Chidester]

I can't answer most of your questions, but it's worth mentioning that Matt Larson, the NCO in charge of Combatives (unarmed combat) for the US Army, is an ARMA member. Combatives are divided into three levels. The lowest is indeed based on Brazilian Ju-Jitsu (not Japanese Judo), he's currently reworking the higher levels to be based on Western Martial Arts.

[Gene Tausk]

Jeremy:

Wow. Where to begin?

Mike already made an excellent point about SSgt. Larsen reworking the US Army combatives based on WMA. I have met SSgt. Larsen and he is an intelligent man who has his "pick" of arts from which to choose, so his choice tells you something right there.

As for historical examples:

Look at the Codex Wallerstein, available from Paladin Press. Clear examples of disarms (known as "Ringen am Schwert" or "wrestling at the sword") as well as tactical and practical descriptions of this art are demonstrated.

Visit the "Artwork" section in the ARMA website for example after example of disarms being practiced. The names of the manuals from where the illustrations come from are given.

During WWII, the Combatives program developed by Fairbain and his group were taught to commandos and other "special forces" and they did just fine. Although Fairbain had some training in Judo and some Chinese boxing, his synthesis of techniques was based on Western principles of boxing and fencing, so I would certainly call his innovations "Western"

If you still wish to continue arguing with this person, then I would turn the tables somewhat and ask him for specific details of which special forces units study which arts? It is not enough to lump everyone together and say "special forces study Eastern arts." It may be the case that individuals within a unit study certain arts, but that, of course, is up to the individual.

There is a lot more to say, but examining the Codex Wallerstein and the Artwork will get you started.

Good luck.


--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Director - ARMA Houston Southside Study Group

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeremy

As far as a disarm being "easy once you know how to manipulate the hand and wrist", From what i have seen in both Eastern and western martial art's the priority is to get control of the weapon arm and alot of time's that will include injuring that arm then getting the weapon, the actual taking of the weapon is low priority.

I would say next time you encounter this type of thing just walk away, people will believe what they want and there is no sense arguing, in real life or on the internet, we do have heated discussion's here at time's and at the end of the day we are scholar's as well as fighter's and willing to research what other's are saying and if we are wrong we will change our thinking, none of us think that what we do is better than any other martial art we just train diffrently than alot of matrtial artist out there, we try to keep a mindset of this is a dangerous, brutal, thing to do or have done to you.

Part of the reason is the way we think and not many of us think we are tough guy's, we know on any given day we could be taken down.

It sound's like you were beating a dead horse i would just back away slowly.

Jeff

[Matt_Bruskotter]

From my limited observation it's hard to say which martial art people practice. For example, how many martial arts out there practive the hip throw? The standard punch? Lots. The human body is the same everywhere and that's why many martial arts out there share many techniques. So to say that the military only utilizes eastern martial arts is not entirely true. I'd say the military probably takes a little from every art. No martial art can claim that their specific techniques are "thiers." The same goes with sword techniques. Many Western techniques with the sword are similar to those around the world. So who gets to claim those techniques? Does ownership come to those who thought of it first? Or just those who thought of it on thier own? To say you read how to throw a punch from a karate school doesn't mean it's not the same as a boxing punch. So do you use boxing or karate when you punch. It's the same.

I think the to identify a martial art you have to look at the rules by which they operate. You can tell a boxer when he doesn't grapple and vice versa. I don't think the military would use a martial are that uses a limitation like rules. They don't entirely use judo because you don't strike. They don't entirely use boxing because you can't throw.

My conclusion is that the military uses MMA.

[Mike Cartier]

They are right Ninjas are clearly superior to all other martial artss, however i think Pirates can beat Ninjas and I have been working on my Pirate persona secretly so that makes me superior to all Ninjas. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jeffrey Hull]

Well, we all know that because disarming an unarmed man is so easy, it is thus a mystery as to why weapons ever came to be wielded in the first place, since man is so obviously well equipped to fight with natural bodily weaponry equivalent to tigers, wolves, and bears that metal blades would be inferior and superfluous -- as any publicity-seeking lawman-training ninja can tell you.

And it is thus a further mystery as to why all Medieval and modern armies were not / are not filled entirely with unarmed units of Shaolin-style fighting monks.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JH

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jeremy,

Sounds like some of these guys have trouble communicating or are a bit confused.

The key words that that make me wonder: "Your thoughts on disarming further show your lack of knowledge on this matter..."

Once they start to phrase things that basically say, :"you are ignorant and listen to me" you have to think they are too full of themselves and therefore usually wrong.

IMO, it is certainly is a better indicator of a person's position if they can put things into perspective by saying " Personally, I have found that X-Y-Z...."

It gets worse with his comments: "...the first priority for anyone who knows anything about fighting [again with the insult implying he is smart and you aren't] is to disarm your attacker if you have no weapon yourself."

Really? Good idea. I guess that means that putting distance between you and an attacker is never an option? So your partner can assist? Besides, what Law Enforcement Officer or SF is NEVER ARMED. Hmm, still it doen't hurt to put that unarmed vs weapon into your training regimen but then that would imply you had a training regimen.

I like this part the best: "Furthermore disarming is one of the easiest things you can do once you know how. The body mechanics of the wrist and hands can be easily manipulated with the right applications of force, which make it impossible for even a very stong person to continue holding their weapon."

Ah yes, it is SOOOO easy to disarm an armed man... This sounds like the stuff the Jujitsu practicioner (1st Dan) said right before we sparred. I massacred hum in sparring when doing hand vs the knife (I have zero formal grappling training). Not a bust on Jujitsu - just a comment on TRAINING METHODS. Without true MOCK COMBAT you can't accurately assess your skill sets, and I hate to say it, but no one has EVER, EVER captured my hand and/or wrist without first capturing the arm. Why? Is it cause I am good? Nope. It is becayse they never practiced against uncooperative opponents with free sparring and they never learned that grabbing a knife armed fist out of the air by the hand/wrist is HARD. Virtually impossible unless you really, really work it. You will have better luck grabbing and controlling the arm then working the hand or wrist.

Any grappling specialists out there feel free to comment whether you agree or disagree.

Gene, I am 'all ears' if you think I am off a bit on this.

By the way, the guy I trained with was really good at techniques where a drunk grabs his shirt - he was dynamite at handling that.

Best,

Tim

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just like people who fight for their own martial art and try to attack others, just to gain self-respect and self-esteem that their BigDickDo (C by Marc McYoung) <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> ist the ultimate all-beating superking megaway to fight and kill lotsa people and beat every son of a bitch who crosses their shiny way to live and walk the streets....

Well.

Let's try not to be that way, shall we? We have the chance to start anew and learn from the mistakes we made as we studied BigDickDo.

When people try to convince me about their Masterway of fdighting, and say stuff like the guy said to you ("BigDickDo is better than any western martial arts"), i just answer:

OK, fine!

<img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

There are two things I know while facing such a guy:

a.) The chances are high that neither me nor him will ever use his or mine martial art in a real fight. MOST people never get attacked and stuff. So studiing this or that way is not a question of effectiveness, but a question of how well that way suits your daily need for training, phylosophy, egodestruction (TM) and egorebuild (TM).

b.) I can kick his sorry ass if he insists on arguing any longer, if he tryes to attack to prove anything. I tell you something. I cross-trained with lotsa guys, and many of my collegues and my students did the same (I do NOT encourage this, by the way). And 99% of the fights we won. We (WMA enthusiasts) defeat most styles and most fighters who actually try to win a fight against us, BUT!!!!! Not because our style is better and stuff, but because we learn to fight. That's all. Anybody who learns a martial arts style and does not fight armoured, unarmoured, armed and unarmed opponents but trains in Katas and fixed position lectures without free-sparring or free-play will most of the time loose his fights. And second, actual Masters in an Art do not wish to actually test their knowledge against anybody else, do not wish to conwince anybody about their ultimate way to train BigDickDo.

So just ignore anybody who tryes this on you. Walk away and SMILE! That kills nerves <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />


Szabolcs

[Gene Tausk]

Tim:

You are not off at all - your post is dead on target.

Actually, IMHO, the best disarms I have seen worked by others and practiced somewhat myself are from the Israeli art of Krav Maga. What makes them effective, once again IMHO, is that KM practitioners will damage the opponent with hammerfists and low-line kicks before attempting a disarm, because it is taken for granted in KM that the opponent is not going to give up the weapon willingly and so, must be "convinced." <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Your practice session against the Jujutsu practitioner does not surprise me, given your high skill level. However, you bring up a more important point and that is that the only way to really train in disarms is againt opponents who do not follow a set pattern. I totally agree that it is hard, if not downright impossible, to grab a knife or dagger out of the air when the person wielding it knows how to use it and is attempting to stab or slice you. I'm sure you have heard the old adage, "if you go into a fight with someone who has a knife, expect to get cut."

Something else SSgt. Larsen said which I think is germane to this conversation, is that in a "real" knife fight, an experienced practitioner is not going to show you his knife right off - he is going to stab or slice you with it before you know that he even has it. I've only really witnessed two "real" knife fights in my life and both times this proved to be true. Perhaps another person who has seen/experienced more can jump in to this conversation with their impressions. Jay?

Also, I agree with your assessment that you will have better luck grabbing the arm, which once again is done in KM.

Ron Harris will be at our Lone Star Shwertlager event in August and I will try and run a few of these questions by him.

Take care, my friend.


--------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Director -ARMA Houston Southside Study Group

[Jaron Bernstein]

Our local study group is a far cry from experts, so get that grain of salt out, but this something I have done lately in class:

In addition to the padded sword, I started wearing a training rondel. Before, without the rondel, if it got wrestling, it turned into a long drawn out ground match. With the rondel the grappling is very abbreviated until the other fellow gets stabbed 10 seconds into it. And making those pretty disarms from the manual work isn't so easy, even against someone like me who doesn't really have any more knife training than what I read in Meyer.

[Mike Cartier]

couple of points

- Disarms are nice and all but the idea of pulling of a disarm against a sharp bladed weapon in the hands of even a marginally competent opponent is very very hard to do.
I would advocate learning disarms but when push comes to shove you use your weapon to disarm by eliminating the opponent. if you have no weapon you run or get a weapon, if you have no choice at all but to fight a knife weilding opponent you are better off striking for the eyes rather than trying to disarm, you may try to control the opponents knife hand temporarily to get your attack in but ideas of deftly disarming him are very risky.

I was knifed or rather straight razored in my late 20's and indeed you do not see the weapon until its in action, that is the beauty of a knife. i have a buddy who witnessed 3 people get stabbed in a confrontation during a brawl, the assailant had stabbed 3 people almost fatally before anyone even knew he had a knife. Stealth is the strength of the knife.

We do lots of disarms in Filipino kali/escrima but most good teachers will tell you the same things
1. if you get into a knife fight expect to get cut
2. disarms are difficult to acheieve in free form combat so concentrate on your basics not he flashy disarms.

[philippewillaume]

Hello Justin

May be you could point them to Ringeck, ott, lebcuhner, fiore or vadi wrestling or meyer dagger, or Petters or Pashen "wrestling manuals".

You could mention la Savate used by the French brigade mobile (forerunners of anti terrorism, swat, flying squad) before the 1st world war (incidentally that very same war decimated Savate masters which tend to prove that HMG is the most efficient form of close combat).

For what it is worth I am practicing a relatively down to business Aikido and medieval fencing in its wider acceptation not to mention several dabbing in few others discipline when I was young and fit, and quite frankly, I do not believe there is no such thing as the best martial art. There is just you and you are the one making the difference.
One art will be good for you the other will not be, and that is fine
Techniques are just tool, what makes them work is your choice of technique and the pertinence of its application in the given situation.

Disarming a knife or a sword when you are empty handed is bloody difficult. A knife is in essence like sword and bucker, using the buckler alone to parry will leave you open to deception of the said buckler.
We do have tanto dori (knife taking in our cursus, we do that with really knife and or bowies)
Event so chain of event is get out of the way/defelct, grab, lock, control, immobilisation, disarm. If an anytime thing tend to go the wrong way the official word is to turn the lock into a break and be done with it.

It is fine against someone that is not a knife fighter, it is much much harder if the knife fighter capitalise on the facility to deceive the block. (But again wrestling/fist fighting against a trained martial artist is not that easy anyway).
I believe that a break is much easier to achieve than a disarm.

Ps I totally agree with mike C.
If you are fighting a knifeman expect to get cut.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I find what both Mike and Phillipe said sobering and worth considering.

The dagger part of Talhoffer 1467 would seem to agree with one of Phillipe's points, as it seems to tend to encourage lock and break to stop foe than trying to totally disarm him by stripping of weapon -- along with stabbing the foe with your own weapon, of course.

JH

[Matthew_Anderson]

My own experience with dagger sparring pretty much agrees with the concensus here. Disarms are viable techniques to practice but very difficult to do agianst a determined opponent with a clue. Most often it's more like you stab at me, I grab your wrist or control your weapon arm some other way and manage to hold it long enough to stab you. Or, even more often, you stab at me, I grab your wrist, stab at you, you grab my wrist, then somebody goes for a trip, throws a knee, etc. and we end up rolling on the ground. Usually all this happens very quickly and we reset and try again. I have never pulled off a clean disarm against anyone who had any experience.