No clothing grabs in wrestling.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I was wondering why there aren't any grabbing of the clothes in most of the wrestling manuals I've seen. I've seen a few in Fiore in the dagger section but he appears to claim that they don't work. Why? I was wondering because I've recently become aquainted with Judo. Where the clothes not as sturdy as a gi? Is there some major reason they didn't use shirt for chokes or throws? Thanks.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Matt,

Check out the Fabian Von Aeurswald manual shown in the unarmed section. It has clothing grabs. I think the Nicholas Petter one has it also.

[Jake_Norwood]

Wallerstein includes a few, as does Meyer.

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

As Jake says Meyer includes a few, a grab at the pants leg and a headlock where you grab your own clothing to maintain the grip.

[Jaron Bernstein]

There are also a couple (3 from memory, maybe more if I look it up) of "if he grabs your shirt with one hand and stabs you with the other" defenses in Meyer's Dolch chapter. Unfortunately they aren't explicitely listed in the text (although I think some of the described techniques are some of them without overtly listing a particular woodcut).

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

...but if you had period clothing on, there indeed are a few pieces that are definetelly not suited for grabbing. Those tight trousers and fancy shirts, for example.

<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Szabolcs

[philippewillaume]

in a few pieces ringeck told use to grab by the doublet or the hoose

in my experience, grabbing where the doublet and teh hoose attatch is very easy.

philippe

[Gene Tausk]

I agree with all of the comments already made - many of the fechtmeisters indeed advocated grabbing clothes and Nicholas Petter includes a few choice words on this.

If you're wondering why clothes are not mentioned perhaps as much as they might be, don't forget that clothes in the Middle Ages and Renaissance periods were very expensive. It was not uncommon for the dead to have their clothes stripped from them.

Also, don't forget that if you are comparing the fechtbuchen to judo, that judo is a sport which uses the jacket (judogi) for its techniques because it is designed that way, much the same way that sambo uses the kurtka for its techniques. In other words, the entire sport systems of judo and sambo revolve around the use of the jacket. This does not mean, of course, that judo and sambo are "sports" and therefore ineffective - I think they are very effective fighting arts. However, they are built around a specific set of equipment and principles, like most sports.


------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - ARMA Houston Southside

[Jeffrey Hull]

It seemed to me too, that in general the clothing-grabs in Ringen were minimal, presumably in order to encourage the fighter to clutch and lock actual body parts of foe instead of relying upon the iffy and varied designs of wardrobe to achieve techniques.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

That all makes sense. I figured that most clothes, such as today's, are a little weak compared to a judo jacket. I thought the jacket came first, then the art. Not the other way around. The only reason you can tackle like you do in football is because of those shoulder pads and helmet. In rugby we tackle differently.

Apparently I haven't looked at enough wrestling material before I posted a question. Thanks for the patience guys! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Matt,

There is another more prosaic reason. The training uniform is the ARMA t-shirt and sweatpants. You grab and rip my sweatpants, I don't care. Grab and shred that t-shirt and I can't replace it. So the tendency to grab joints instead of clothing. I could wear my fleece pullover if you want try clothing grabs on Sunday. As BJJ folks will tell you, figthing with Gi or no-Gi are very different animals.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Oh, I believe it! It's a completely different feel. Wresltling with a jacket on is "adhesive" wrestling. No jacket wrestling is a little more slippery.

[JeffGentry]

Hye Matt

Feel free to grab my shirt all you want, I have an ARMA shirt and two plain red one's and i can alway's buy another ARMA shirt if i need too.

Jeff

[Randall Pleasant]

Jaron Bernstein wrote:
As BJJ folks will tell you, figthing with Gi or no-Gi are very different animals.

In a conversation with SFC Matt Larson at the 2003 International Event he said that the BJJ chokes made with the collar were not fully affective against the bad guys in Afghanistan because the material of their clothing is often so thin that it tears before the choke is applied.

[Casper Bradak]

Nearly every manual with a wrestling section includes a clothing grab, most of which are grips to the bottom of the doublet. Those techniques are similar to many judo belt grab techniques. I've seen a few lapel grabs. Judo clothing is naturally far easier to grip, compared to form fitting clothing.
I've found a lot of techniques that match up from judo. Just replace the sport conventions with combat ones for example, judo requires sweeps with the bottom of the foot for niceness, but you can see nearly identicle techniques in our manuals where the sweep is being performed with the shin.