Is Savate a Renaissance Martial Art?

[Grant Hall]

As the Subject heading indicates, I was wondering if Savate (in its raw, more pure combat form) is a Renaissance Martial Art, and if so, are there any manuals on the more traditional, combat oriented aspects of it?

Thanks for your time.

[Jaron Bernstein]

What is the earliest known Savate instructor or textbook?

[Gene Tausk]

From what I know in a passing familiarity with the art, it was codified in the 19th century.

This does not mean, of course, that the art did not exist before it was codified. Maybe it had a different name?

Certainly many fechtbuchen and Nicholaes Petter's Introduction to the Excellent Art of Wrestling demonstrate high-level unarmed combat techniques. It is obvious that European civilizations had advanced HTH combatives long before the 19th century.

I'm not certain if this answers your question or not, but AFAIK, Savate itself was not codified until the 19th century. Therefore, I don't know if it can be labeled a "Renaissance" martial art, but it certainly can be labeled a Western martial art.


---------------->>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - ARMA Houston Southside

[Grant Hall]

The Earliest date I am aware of was arround 1750's (give or take 20 years) and I have seen quite a few refrences to an earlier form called caussen (or something like that).

Anyway thanks for the info Gene, if anyone else has any more insights they would be much apprechiated.

Cheers

[philippewillaume]

Hello
It really depend who you are talking to.
Savate-boxe francaise as we know it well sort off is really from the 1800.
Originally it seems that there was first, feet and some from of wrestling (well in Joseph charlemont 1877 and 1899 book. (Though the 1896 traitise of Albert does not have any wrestling)
In the 1900 there was introduction of ju-jitsu.
The First World War almost destroyed the art as it killed or maimed lots of students and teacher
Until the First World War there was a strong self defense influence in the art (it was taught to polices task forces from the beginning.)

After the Second World War the version as we know it (IE feet and fist) re-emerged from 1965 onwards

No-body know of the origins but the early practice seems to be linked
Fencing and canne and English boxing (and the inroduction of jutitsu is probably the taken in the same context) seems to have a big influences.
The earlier tratrise is from louis Leboucher in 44 (he was as well teacher in English boxing, canne, staff and French boxing )

Chausson (slipper) is associated to savate (cheap shoes). I have come across chausson de paris chausson de Marseille but I am no sure what the hell is was. It seems that chausson de Marseille had higher kicks.
From what I understood, savate/French boxing comes from locaql traditional free for all fighting. So I think that mainly the kicking of the original form was kept integrated through French boxing.

But all that is not more than an educated guess

[Grant Hall]

Thankyou very much for your assistance, if anyone has anything they can add, I'd appreciate it very much.

Cheers

[Vakhtang Kiziria]

Hello Grant!
The little information I could offer is obscure and could be false.
Many years ago, in conversation with the acquaintance of mine-the martial art student I heard the story of origin of savate.
He was saying that it were French sailors who spread this art in 19 century. Why sailors I do not remember...but he also mentioned about Karribean bukaneers of Espaniola (French by origin) who were known to use curios kiks with fist panches when fighting.
Good lack in your reaserch!
Vakhtang

[Grant Hall]

Thankyou for the info, I'll keep up the research, I find Savate to be very interesting. (I used to do Taekwondo, and its kicking techniques have served me well in innumerable fights with rowdy drunks at the local pubs and clubs. However, I found Taekwondo too lacking in the fist/punching aspect of fighting, when I heard Savate had "Taekwondoish styled kicks" combinded with solid Western Boxing I knew I had to try it. Now since joining ARMA, I simply wonder how far back in Western History did this kind of fighting occur? (Not Savate in of itself, but I mean, could we have seen Vikings or Knights Templar throwing roundhouses at their enimies or lashing out a backkick at a foe trying to close from behind? I find it very intrigueing)

Anyway thanks again.

Cheers

[Vakhtang Kiziria]

Hello Grant!
About knight Templars,Vikings or Saracens, or even solders of Roman Empire, or Greek hoplits, about any swordsman fighting for his life, we can be sure would use violent kiks and panches. at least I am sure, becose I have seen old styles of Georgian box and wrestling, ( it survives together with duel fencing until recently . By the way if you are curios about it check Richard Halliburton "Seven Leages Boots" there is chapters on "lost crusaders". Or Amberger Kristof in his 'Sekret history of the sword" there is a chapter on georgian highlenders and chra-chriloba , one of their fencing styles)
But what I wanted to say is that human body produses the same movements and reflektions when defending. All the styles we know were created naturaly, so I guess what worked for Georgian warrior would work for any other swordsmen, fighter. Not only kiks and panches were used during unregulated fight ( duel was striktly regulated), but there even some strangiest things I have observed. For examle there is a sertain wrestling game wich teaching one to put adversary on the graund if one's hands are disabled or one's hands taid. ( I am sure many words misspeled,please forgive my English) During fencing fight when both were very angry I have observed elements of this wrestling, plus hits by bukler...
One shall not forget that those teqnikes that survived throug sports and duel systems are not the same as "dirty fighting". I think the same difference as between Sport Boxing and street fight.

P.S I remember now, my friend was telling me that kind of fist fighting that bukaneers used, could be seen in drunk fights among pirates of Karribean and even in some of the port taverns of colonies. He named few travelers, who recorded such facts in their books but it is imposible to remember for me now.
If you have no idea were to search, I could try to contact him, I hope he still lives in Moscow. Let me know if you want to dig into it, then I will try.
All the best,
Vakhtang

[Grant Hall]

Thanks for the help.
I do not wish to trouble you, but if yo can track down your Russian freind I'd appreciate it.
Im becoming more and more fascinated with all Western Unamered arts. The more one delves into it, the more one sees it can more than hold its own against EMA. So many moves are so similar, but where EMA seems designed to "Score points" WMA is "Pure Massacre".

Again thanks to everyone for there help.

PS: One question on WMA ringen (SP?) which Mannual is suggested as the most useful for learning the fundamentals?

Cheers.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Grant

I have been looking at Codex Wallerstien alot the last 3 month's for the unarmed and it seem's to address alot of "basic" type stuff.

So many moves are so similar, but where EMA seems designed to "Score points" WMA is "Pure Massacre".

I realy doubt that EMA started that way, one advantage we have in reconstruction is our art has not been popularized as a way to get fit, or as a sport for point's, or watered down so the mass's could learn it and not hurt themselve's in a class, it has been disected and turned into a number of other sport's though, so we have lost alot of knowledge.

Jeff

[Grant Hall]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
I have no doubt EMA began as true combat arts, but as you stated it has been somewhat dilluted over the years.

thanks again.

Cheers

[Joachim Nilsson]

Grant Hall wrote:

One question on WMA ringen (SP?) which Mannual is suggested as the most useful for learning the fundamentals?

As Jeff already have stated you can take a look at Codex Wallerstein. Combine that with Fiore and, for the really basic stuff, Johann Georg Passchen's Das Vollstandiges Ringbuch and you've probably got yourself a fairly well rounded repertoire.. And yes, you spelled ringen correctly. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards,

[Grant Hall]

Thanks for the info, I think I'll tackle ringen nice hard over the next six months, I just had a bit of a run in on one of the boards with a "EMA Elitist" and I really want to stockpile my repetoir so I can start converting the masses through demonstration, not just pure violence. One thing them EMA's have going for them, they're determinined little buggars

[Joachim Nilsson]

Hehe, yes I just read that. Seems like you need to blow off a little steam, and ringen is perfect for that. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, you seem to have a fair amount of street fighting experience so I think ringen will be right up your alley. There's a lot of techniques in there that's very much in line with what most of us have dished out at one time or another. An dlike I said in my previous post, look to Vollstandiges Ringbuch for the most basic stuff; freeing yourself from grips, punching, kicking etc. It's available here at our website in translated form and can easily be worked through in its entirity in one afternoon session.