Western Boxing

[Robert Rolph]

I was just wondering if they taught some type of early western boxing during the Rennasance period...or the Medieval? I think boxing is a pretty good system of close range fist fighting, and it would certainly come in handy angainst a wrestler in a real fight! It's simple and affective...so the more you practice the better fighter you become! that would cool...seeing two knights go at it! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Chidester]

Striking was, of course, a significant part of kampfringen (unarmed combat); however, boxing would not be effective in a real fight. Boxing is too linear, and too dependent on the giant gloves. Typically you'd use striked with the heel of your hand and "hammar fist" strikes (essentially, dagger strikes with no dagger). You'd also throw in low kicks, especially to the knee area, and foot stomps.

But the primary aim of kampfringen was to throw your opponent to the ground, either breaking his neck or making him vulnerable to a killing blow with a weapon. The strikes were mostly to facillitate this, by distracting him and possibly even rendering him momentarily senseless ("TKO").

[KatherineJohnson]

Boxing is not linear at all, at least, it's not supposed to be. It also really isnt all that dependant on the gloves. They're certainly helpful once you learn how to hit really hard, but not totally necessary as long as you keep your hand and wrist tight.


I'd also disagree on the utility of knee kicks. They are often brought up as being very devistating, crippling kicks, but I get kicked in the knee practically every day and have never had a problem, though usually the person that just busted their foot on my knee has to stop.

The only good use of knee kicks I've ever seen is in Mair's work wherein he does a stomping/push kick to the knee in standing grappling range. Outside of grappling range most people have their knees bent and you're much more likely to hurt your foot then hurt their knee if you kick them there.

[KatherineJohnson]

On a side note, my boxing footwork has improved my fencing footwork tremendously.

[M Wallgren]

I´m of the same thought!

Though, It is more devestating to kick a "thai" rondhouse kick aimed att the thigh on a person not trained to take such damage.

Again no such kicks are showed in the manuals. And no boxing style hooks.

If one looks att a MMA fight one find that the strikes and kicks has a effectiv rate of around 1 to 10 or 15. Most of them are just tactical layups for other attacs. And it is hard to knock out an opponent. Timing and accurasy is essensial. Grappling in my oppinion is better if you need to finnish the fight fast. With or without arms and armour!

But it is a interessting discussion.

Martin

[Robert Rolph]

Well, actually...the knee can be very devastating if use correctly! Pulling the face down and smash your knee into his face when throws a punch can knock someone out cold! Besides, MMA you see in the ring is a sport version...so there are regulation where all the dangerous moves using knees, elbows, kicks, etc...are prohibited in the ring. However, the real fight is very different, and it only takes a few second to determine who wins and who looses and die! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[M Wallgren]

Ehh... I´m sorry if I was unclear, I refered to Kicks to the Knee. I agree, Kicks with the knee is of good use. And I know that MMA is a sport, but I hold on to that striking is a harder way to drop somebody, than to get him down and then finish him off.

[Gene Tausk]

"however, boxing would not be effective in a real fight. Boxing is too linear, and too dependent on the giant gloves."

I respectfully suggest you go to a gym where real boxers train and call one out for a fight.

Hope you have medical insurance.


------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Gene Tausk]

Boxing goes back at least to ancient Greece, where it was an Olympic event. There are vases with pictures on them from 500-600 BCE which clearly depict boxing. Also, we have accounts of boxing from ancient records.

Boxing was very popular during the times of the Roman Republic/Empire.

Certainly fighting with the fists existed during the Rennaissance. I would recommend reading John Clement's book "Renaissance Swordsmanship" for an description of how what we know as "prizefighting" came about.

Modern boxing is directly descended from the rules instituted by the Marquis of Queensbury, hence, "Queensbury Rules." Before such introduction, nastiness such as kicking, throwing and rabbit punching was used by the fighters.


-------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[KatherineJohnson]

I concur with Martins analysis that grappling is a superior way to quickly and decisivly to end a fight then striking.


I disagree with Robert's assertion that MMA is not like a real fight, however, primarily because I have dozens of streetfights on video and they very much resemble extremely sloppy MMA.


Also, the fact is that any techniques from the historical sources are also seen in modern day MMA and grappling styles seems to indicate to me that fighting has looked basically the same for quite a long time.

[Mike Chidester]

To clarify my remarks on boxing, I was mostly referring to the fact that 1) because boxers wrap their wrists, they don't learn to properly line up their arm and fist when striking barehanded; this can cause serious damage to themselves when they try to fight without gloves. 2) They're used to using their gloves to defend themselves--tiny sheilds, if you will; bare hands don't work that way, and I've seen a lot of fighters with boxing training learn this the hard way as their opponents continually slip strikes through their guard.

I don't disagree that boxing footwork is effective. It was the core of Bruce Lee's footwork (along with sport fencing), and is also an influence on John's. Likewise, I know where prizefighting and therefore boxing are derived.

My contention is mostly that modern boxing would not be something you would have seen in medieval fights, because it has evolved to rely on special equipment and rules. You'd see a much wider variety of strikes, and you'd see mostly grappling.

And both the knee stomp and the kick to the side or back of the knee can be quite effective, under the appropriate circumstances.

[Mike Cartier]

I agree with Katherine

[Jeremy Martin]

Boxing with all that wrapping and those big gloves would do more harm than good, if you're trying to learn self defense, imo. I don't understand why you'd do that, if that's your goal. Now the training, footwork, handwork, may be all good. Personally, I don't think it's 'good' only because it doesn't teach use of elbows and knees.

If you're attacking with your knuckles, I'd recommend keeping your hand vertical rather then horizontal. Much less chance of hurting your hands. And big hooks with your bare hands against someones head will likely hurt your hands as well. When they bare handed boxed back in the day, you didn't see those sorts of punches really.

I'm with the guy who suggested using palm heel and hammer blows. Hard to soft, soft to hard. Use your knuckles(hard) for the 'soft' targets of the body, like the gut, while using palm heels and hammer blows(soft) for 'hard targets', like the head.

Kicks to the knees can be very effective, if you use blade of your foot. I wouldn't use the top of my foot, was that what you were talking about? The side of the knee is a very good target for the blade of your foot. Or use the heel, if you're accurate enough. You won't hurt that.

Grappling is only for last resort in a real fight! Usually in a real fight the guy you're fighting has buddies, or just people standing around who like to throw cheap shots. You don't want to tie-up with the guy unless you know no one is going to interfere. Not to mention it gives him a good opportunity to pull a weapon in a way that will escape your notice.

If you do go to the ground, I still recommend strikes to end the fight faster. Downward striking elbows to the face and head will stop the fight quick.

With all that said, Western boxing can improve your conditioning, hand speed, strength, foot work, and confidence. I'd just leave the gloves off if you plan on learning 'real world' self defense.

[Gene Tausk]

I don't know if you, or anyone else on this forum, has actually gotten into a boxing ring and gone for three rounds with a Golden Gloves boxer. If you have (and I speak from experience here), you gain a whole new level of respect for these people who not only know how to throw a punch, but more importantly, how to take one. If you have not, go ahead and do so and then come back and tell me how boxers do not know "real" self defense.

Yes, I know that "boxing in a ring is different from fighting on the street." However, in most situations, I would want a trained boxer backing me up in a real situation. Trained boxers have an impeccable knowledge of the five rules of fighitng - timing, distance, perception, technique and most of all IMHO - attitude.

I also concur with those postings that state that boxing in the pre-Queensbury era was different than today (post-Queensbury). As I stated previously, there was a lot more nastiness back then. However, this does not negate the fact that boxers can more than take care of themselves in modern society.

It also amazes me that individuals think that because a boxer does not learn knee strikes or kicks to the groin in their training that they do not know how to apply them in real situations. First, once again I speak from experience, a lot happens in a "clinch" that is designed to hurt your opponent which is against the rules, but fighters who are bound and determined to win will find a way to "accidentally" knee someone in the groin. As for those who claim that elbow strikes are not taught...well...more than once I heard the excuse, "not my fault, ref, that he got in the way of my elbow."

However, even clean boxers will add an inventory of strikes to the groin and knee kicks for use in "real" situations. Many boxers are people who have been in fights "for real" and they know what works and what does not.

This discussion, quite frankly, brings me back to some of the early videos I have seen (1970's) when "kuh-rotty" practitioners who had never done any real sparring in their lives went up against trained amateur and professional boxers who make full-contact sparring a part of their training. Guess who won? But, the "kuh-roddy" practitioners were so convinced that because their "systems" use knees and kicks and elbows, they would more than prevail against fighters who....you know....REALLY FIGHT. Once again, guess who won. (Hint - the guy on the canvas was wearing the gi).

Times have changed, of course. Now, thanx to MMA competitions, there are very few out there who look at martial arts realistically who will believe that they have some unbeatable "system " that will prevail through all circumstances. However, the invite still stands. Those who claim that boxing does not teach "real world" self defense, go to a gym where boxers train and call one out for a streetfight. I guarantee you will find some takers.

My advice about medical insurance, posted earlier, still stands.


----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Jeremy Martin]

I don't really see a point in there that disputes mine. It's all fine and good, but why not learn strikes with the elbows and knees? Why wear big, thick padded gloves? Sure, many people know how to throw a knee, but naturally those who practice it will be better. Just like boxers will throw a punch faster and harder than your average Joe.

But even if they know how to throw a flying 360 degree spinning Hurricane kick, they didn't learn it practicing modern western boxing. Which I thought this was about. Not the personal skill of fighters you know.

Personally, I'd rather have someone with lots of experince fighting in the streets having my back in a fight, rather then a boxer.

Boxing is good, but it's also limited in it's scope.