Working Out in the Gym in order to fight better.

[Bill Tsafa]

I put up a webpage for people who do not have experiance or knowledge of strenth training. Strenth is essential to any sport. In any competition between equaly skilled competitors, the stronger one will win. I have been training with wieghts for almost 20 years. I have also competed in several strenth related sports. So the workout on the linked webpage works. I address beginners and more advanced people.

You should work out in a gym with weights if you truly wish to be an effective swordsman or fighter. A sword or a fist requires skill to use, but that skill should also be backed up with strength. Most of the 15th century fightbooks contain sections on wrestling and wrestling at the sword. In such close combat situations strength will be an even more important factor. In this day an age all competitive athletes work out with weights. You can never achieve your true potential in any sport unless you are as strong as you can be. In the early Olympics of the 20th century those athletes relied only on practicing their sport to gain the necessary strength. By the end of the 20th century all champion athletes in just about every sport spend time in the gym lifting weights to gain the maximum amount of strength they can. This is well beyond the strength that they normally get from just practicing their sport. Weight-lifting is a proven method that works if you want to be at your best in any sport. Here is a link with some sample workouts specifically designed to increase strength and power.

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/workout.htm

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hello Bill,

I also have been lifting weights for a very long time, and in my heyday have held numerous records, I reviewed your workout regime and I agree that it is a well rounded workout for general strength and fitness-no arguments there.

I am wondering for how long have you practiced WMA or any other Martial art and have you found your weight lifting to be beneficial or did it detract from some of your abilities?

I have over the last two years or so, begun to rethink my approach to weight lifting in general as it realtes to WMA and movement of body specifically. In this regard, I think that "supersets" of higher reps, and lower weights are key. In building strength through the use of heavier weights and slower sets/ and lower reps I feel as if the muscles shorten, become thicker and slower and thus not much use for quick-twitch muscle fiber recruitment. Like I said it's just a theory for now but I admit it would also depend on the individual in terms of thier own bodily development- thoughts?

[Jeremy Martin]

I'd also recommend leg raises, calf raises, one legged squats(body weight only), lunges, and burpees. Pull-ups too if you can do them.

I can define those if anyone needs me too.

[Bill Tsafa]

Hi Aaron,

Funny you asked that question because I think I have a good answer. You see in my 20 years of working out, about 5 years ago circumstances in my life made me stop going to the gym and spend more hours working. In hindsight it was a poor excuse but thats what happen.

About 3 years ago I started gaining an interest in Longsword fighting and collecting various swords. As I started solo drill practices and had a few practice encounters with partners, I realized I was not the man once was. That motivated me to change my life around and get back into the gym.

After two years of not working out my strenth was as if I had never trained in a gym. Since my goal at that point was just to get in shape for Longsword, I was going 2 or 3 times a week and doing a fullbody workout, one excercise per bodypart, 3 or 4 sets of 10 reps . After 4 months I was in better shape. I was halfway between where I was when I was not training and when I was at my strongest.

I still lacked the explosiveness that I knew I could have and I was still not at the strength I had once known. It seemed I was on the same level with other people, but not stronger. I wanted an additional advantage. I moved to a the 4 day split routine on my website, issolating certain bodyparts on given days an going heavier with 4 sets of 5 repetitions. Within 3 months of that I was at 97 % of my previous max strength. I was able to do an 8 foot standing longjump again. And I was able to perform the various Longsword wrestling moves of Liechneur against big opponents more effectivly.

Longsword in the Liechneur tradition is a very fast and explosive fight. Idealy you want to get the advantage of the Vor (before) and win quickly. The various strokes are ment to be done fast. Liechneur and Ringneck advise using the whole body and especialy the power of the legs. All these things go hand in hand with modern strength training.

Of course I also do some cardio work, I find 20 minuts once a week to be suficient. If I do more then that I found that you start to loose peek strength performance. I discoved this many years ago when I was throwing the shotput. However running twice a week for 20 minuts should not detract if you like running. If the 20 minutes is too easy, try to do the run faster. After all, no fight should last more then 20 minutes and you often get a chance to rest between fights. If you plan on doing some kind of marathon type fighting, where you don't get any rest, that is another story, but that would be uncommon.

Sorry if my answer dragged on a bit, I just wanted to give you the whole background so everyone better understands and can determin if the exercise program I recommended is right for them.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

That's OK Bill no problem, I think I still have not made my point, but it ties in perfectally with the new thread on Police reports of Officers in use of force incidents- As a SWAT Officer I can say with some authority that it is always better to have the fight over quicker, and not prolong it- which leads to the "type" of working out you want to do in the gym to enhance "fighting" capability.

In general we think of a "fighter" in most respects, as a very heavily muscled individual and we see body types like Arnold's (need I say last name) as the ideal. But this mass even though it might be muscle is not the right type of body that a "fighter" should seek to develop. In fact that stoutness of frame can sometimes hinder performance in some respects.

If you want to train to fight, than you have to have a little strength training, a little aerobic, but primarily should focus on anerobic activity, that is going as fast for as long as possible without rest- in intervals- to maximize performance.

here's an example- instead of running for 15min on treadmill, then some kind of lifting regimine, then finishing with some jumping rope etc...these should all be mixed in together and at maximum potential-so I will warm-up, stretch then bench press 2x20 of medium weight, followed by 1xfailure of lighter weight, then go to treadmill, (whigh ideally would all-ready be going) and jog for 10 minutes then all out sprint for 2minutes followed by a another jog for 5 as cooldown, then jump rope for 5 minutes medium speed then all-out again til fatigue-

something along these lines, now for us, practicing this art, we should include our longsword in our workouts, combining some strength, some aerobic, but then the anerobic should be our drills, done at max and med intensity to help- condition ourselves for the encounter.

My argument is that we have to get away from this mindset that performance of weight lifting translates into fighting prowess-which in my view contributes much less than many suspect. Fighting (any kind) is a much diffrent animal all together than just gym training, (traditional that is)- thoughts on this ?

[Bill Tsafa]

Hi Aaron,
What you suggest, has probably been the type of training that has been used for many centuries, just not using standard weight equipment. I know that in the armed forces for example they preffer a more endurace type of training. That makes sense, because in the armed forces you will not be fighting for short periods of time and more importantly you often carrying as much as 100 lbs equipment as you move around. The Seals are even more concerned with endurace and breathing efficiency. I think that in your voccation as a law enforcement officer, endurace would be more vital then explosive strength.

I have had a number of discusion over time in other forums and via email with people who train for Ultimate Fighting type of competition. This is the most realistic type of hand combat fighting I know of. Basicly anything goes except eye gouging and a few other rules to prevent irripairable dammage. There are three types of fightstyles, the striking style, the grappling style and a hybrid of the two. Most fighters use the hybrid style. I have learned that strikers and those who use hybrid style do a lot of low rep sets for explosive power. The pure grapplers tend to do mostly endurance. I have also been told that grapplers rarely win. It seems that the person who fights the quick explosive fight is in a better position to control the course of the fight and bring a quick end in his favor. Ulimate fighting style bouts have really shaken up the martial arts world over the last 10 years. Many old manuvers and techniques have been found useless in real fight situations. This information reguarding Ultimate Fighting I present to you second hand from the experiance told to me by other people, so I can not realy comment any further except that it does seem to fall in line with the win fast method of Licheneur. It is apparent that the importance of stength/edurance is different in a competition were you will fight only one person at a time versus a battlefield where you will fight all day or days with no rest and carry equipment.

In regaurd to the last paragraph of you last post:

My argument is that we have to get away from this mindset that performance of weight lifting translates into fighting prowess-which in my view contributes much less than many suspect. Fighting (any kind) is a much diffrent animal all together than just gym training, (traditional that is)- thoughts on this ?

This is a very old debate topic between coaches of strength related sports. The old school before the 70's was in line with what you said. If you are a highjumper you practice jumping with weights around your ankels. If you are a shotputter, you throw a heavier shot in practice then in competition. If you are a sprinter, you just sprint. The new school of though after the 70's is that strength training and practice are two seperate animals. You train with weights for maximum strenth and you practice to perfect your technique. Then you go win. You still allow for some variations, but this is the general idea. The specialized method has simply resulted in more gold medels and that is what is used today by most coaches. Consider the training of football players. Time in the weightroom is seperate from time on the field. They have diffrent couches that specialize in weight training and field play. I will say from my own experiace that weighttraining will not make you a better fighter, it will only make you stronger, however, between equaly skilled opponents, the stronger man will win.

Regarding the issue of muscle bulk vs. performance. The shape and size of your muscles and how they will respond to training is determined by genetics. So why do body builder seem to have bigger muscles then shotputters or football players? Understand that the person that becomes a top bodybuilder had huge muscles with long bellies and short tendons before he ever stepped into the gym, such was the case with the current Mr. Olympia, Ronnie Coleman. Ronnie had 22 inch arms from his frist day of training, he trained improve what nature gave him. Likewise the people who make it into the Olimpics as Sprinters already have muscles geard towards explosive strength from birth. Olympic marathon runners have muscles and lungs that give them an edurance advantage. If you asked a sprinter to train for a marathon, it is not likly he could ever win. The same is true if you asked a marathon runner to train for sprinting, he will never win. If you go back to my earlier post, I said that for a few months I was doing an fullbody workout that used higher reps of 4x10. The size and shape of my muscles did not change when I started doing lower rep work of 4x5. I only got stonger. My bodyweight went up 10 lbs (5%), my strenght went up about 25%.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

ahhhh, This is indeed an old argument, and I agree with many of your points, but disagree in a few areas.

I am going to say this first point, and it may be contraversial, but I will stick to it anyhow, You mention Ronnie Coleman and I am gald you did because it is sort of what I am talking about but, obviously the most extreme example. Modern "bodybuilders" in my view should not even exist, if it were not for the use of steroids. They have gone beyond what normal human body composition should be. I have been face to face with Jay Cutler, at an event and were it not for the staff he had with him, to carefully monitor his every move, he would have given himself a heart attack just walking up about 10 steps. The guy could hardly stand for more than 15 minutes without needing abreak. This was of course when he was in the off cycle, and had not lost the water weight prior to competition. I liken those sorry folks to WWF wrestlers, all used and abused by the powers that be, controlling things for use in comercial adds and power bar wrappers etc... I am always amazed at thier ability to hoist some amazing weight totals, but man talk about unhealthy-anyway that's slightly off-topic.

I have also had occasion to have many discussions with a semi-pro football conditioning staff member. (who used to be pro) anyway, you are correct in your discussion about keeping the weight training seperate from the field training, but again that is not quite what I describe, while that type of training, I do feel has a place in what we do I also do not want you to misunderstand that I am not saying weight training will not make you stronger, of course it will I conceed that right away. I am becoming more convinced though that in fighting, you need that kind of strength less than a combat conditioning kind of endurance, which is also diffrent than a sprinters in the example you provided. It is more in-line with the UFC example you gave, in whom I agree is probably in todays sports world who we should try and emulate, but still not quite.

The diffrence being we train to use arms, those arms being a specific type, (swords). I think that by training with the same weapon in two ways, one being for the "combat conditioning" mode and then the actual "combat" mode we get the results desired. I keep thinking about a quote from I believe Meyer, (I will try and find it) where the Master says, "training with the longsword for the sake of training is healthy and right, but is training for the sake of, and is diffrent than training to fight with the longsword in combat"- I am paraphrasing but states something to this effect.

We also should train in seperate ways not neglecting the rest, but again the weight lifting is seperate and not fight training.

Anyway, these are all just my thoughts and I respect your angle as well, so any which way we train I guess is better than no training, right? I wish you good training in the future, we will have to talk about this more sometime- later man, Aaron

[Bill Tsafa]

Thanks Aaron ,
It was indeed a very good discusion we had.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I am a firm believer in "you fight like you train."

[Jeremy Martin]

"I am a firm believer in "you fight like you train." "

I agree. If you train explosively, you'll fight the same way. And it is, in my opinion, the best way if you're training to be able to fight better.

Although if you break out into a 30min stair step routine you may impress your opponent into submission.

[TimSheetz]

Hi Guys,

This is a great discussion.

I do not prefer weight lifting. I had two friends that needed shoulder surgury cause they kneeled at the altar of iron.

The strongest most explosive guys I knew were the gymnasts, and I never saw them in the weight room. They used their own body weight as resistance.

I'd rather use my weight as resistance and suplement with using apparatus, like a waster, poles, wrist, ankle, vests, and a medicine ball.

I always thought that the best tool for explosive power was plyometrics. I am NOT a physical trainer certifed at all, but I have trained a lot of people to get more fit. What I am saying seems to make sense to me...

So what do you think?

Tim

[Bill Tsafa]

hi tim sheetz,

I have heard of some guys that do gymanstics also training with weights, just not legs because they want to keep them light. I have also heard of some gymnatics coaches that think that it is a wast of time. So men's gynastics is no exception from the debate that is common in many other sports.

There is one differece for gymnastics and sword fighting. In gymnastics you only have to deal with your own weight and gravity, never another oponent's strength or weight. In swordfighting you will have to deal with another persons strength and weight, especialy if your opponent closes in on you. Some stength training may give you the advantage you need if you are figthing another person of simmilar size and skill who does not lift weights.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Again, I disagree Bll, the weight you speak of...is not just dead weight or the persons weight on you, but dynamic shifting, pulling etc...you do not need big bulky O2 depleting muscles to help you deal with this type of fight. What you need is an overall endurance and ability to stay quick and make decisive movements in that encounter, as well as strength. If I had my choice though I would train the endurance aspects more than just the weight lifting. Tim's on the right track as well with the poly training, that will help as well.

This debate has likey existed since men began training, and I doubt we will settle anything here, just important to keep an open mind, but I can only tell you that fighting well does not require huge muscles- well, maybe in the WWF, shoot give me a stairstepper someone I feel like training!

[Rod-Thornton]

This is an interesting thread to me. Concerns over strength and stamina to "explode" in sparring cuts and counters have me running (for cardio) and now visiting the gym again after a 20 year hiatus as a collegiate athlete. (Yeah, time can be cruel <grin>).

In looking to understand what would serve ARMA interests best, I spoke with a good friend who is both a chiropractor and the head coach of our local schoolboy weightlifting team.

He spoke about how most approaches to strength training focus on what he calls "peripheral strength" and not "core strength" . I.e., resistance training of the extremities (arms, legs, shoulders, etc.) and not the central body axis...but a stronger core strength (spine, hips, body) would serve most far better with less injuries and more performance when it was called upon. To that goal, he spoke about values of medicine balls, sacks of flour/sand, gynastics-ballet dancers, etc.

Funny, but when you look at a bodybuilder, you expect the muscle bulk, but look at a burly old farmer tossing hay bales and grain sacks, and you don't....

What opinions are there regarding this idea and what we do in WMA?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

oohhh-good stuff here, I agree core strength is where it's at and for this kind of training there was never anyone better than "Farmer Burns" look him up on a google search and you will find all kind of stuff on him. He was a very strong "strongman" back in the day and has a number of very interesting core exercises.

The thing about these core exercises, is also that there is a danger of injury as well. Most guys when they are in the gym get cought up in the "must lift more" attitude when just a little would do just fine, so keep that in mind and you'll be good- x's like good AM x's, cleans, clean and jerk, pull-ups, push-ups, etc, etc..all good stuff.

An interesting story quick, (which is related) I was giving a demo at Lanzefest in New Glarus WI, when two women who happened to be Amish, (The Amish are a religious sect, that believe in nothing modern) approached me and talked for awhile about swords etc...but when the two asked to hold on to my sword she reached out and took ahold of it, and that's when I saw those huge, defined, unbelievable forearm and hand muscles-I am telling you, I am no slouch but she was freakin me out man, she probably could have choked the blank out of me if she wanted too- there is no substitute for the strength gained from manual labor, although very hard on the body over the years-still pretty hard to beat-