Lack of Striking

[Jeff Hansen]

It has always been my opinion that the relatively low amount of attention given to striking by the manuals was due to avoidance of duplication. That is, there is no way to strike with an empty hand that can't be duplicated with a dagger, thrust = straight punch, ice-pick stab = hammerfist, etc. So, If you're writng a manual and you are covering dagger, why go over the same stuff again in the unarmed section? I still think this is true, but I have come to the conclusion that it is only part of the equation.

It occurred to me the other day that the people who wrote and read the fechtbuchs were all swordsmen, with the attendant dynamic footwork and highly developed sense of range and timing. So they wouldn't have stood in range and traded blows like a boxing match. They would have used their abilities to remain on the edge of striking range and wait for an opening. The way to break this standoff is to charge. The charge immidiately cuts the fight down to one or two blows followed by grappling. In a battlefield situation you probably leave out most or all of the dancing around and go straight to the charge. Add to this the fact that your opponent may be armored to a greater or lesser degree, and striking potentially becomes even less of a factor. Obviously, I'm not addressing strikes inside the clinch, or delivered to a fallen opponent. That's a different animal.

I think this explains why, in Codex Wallerstein for instance, out of 87 unarmed plates only 11 deal with defence against a strike. And 8 of those end with a throw or a break. I don't think striking (at range) was neglected, but it may not have been an emphasized tactic.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Jay Vail]

Jeff, I agree that striking seems to be neglected in the manuals. You see some, but not much. Apart from the Codex, there aren't many manuals that address striking in any detail. Talhoffer, 1459 shows a dagger defense relying on a cover and punch, but it's an anomaly. I suspect that's because the techniques in the manuals were intended to be used in harness, where striking is of limited use. Coincidentally, koryu jujutsu and its predecessor kumiuchi did not emphasize strikes but like kampfringen relied on locks and throws (which are virtually indistinguishable from those you find in ringen) as the core of the system.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeff

I do agree to an extent, hitting someone is pretty instinctive were as "wrestling"(including Jui jitsu, judo and such) is not and it can be very effective, it is not a stand alone though if all you know is striking then you may be at a disadvantage to a striker/grappler who will close with you and can work in the clich to break an arm a leg throw you and what not.

"Boxing" has changed alot over the last 600 year's just as most martial art's have, and i think it has it's place in what we study and was probably considered fairly common so there was not much need to cover striking in a fight book were as grappling is not as instinctive so the author's covered what i think they thought were there best/most useful technique's even in the "modern day" kid's on a play ground get into fist fight's and almost none are trained in a striking art they just do it instinctively so i imagine in an earlier period it was about the same.

Just my 2 cent's worth.

Jeff

[Gene Tausk]

Jeff:

You raise some good and valid points. Another factor to consider was that on the battlefield, these warriors had armor. Punching and kicking a man with good protection will not really hurt the recipient and, if the person doing the punching is not wearing armor, might injure him.

Grappling of course will avoid this and this is why, IMHO, you see a lot of joint breaks in the manuals. No matter how much a person is encased in armor, he still has to move so his joints are still vulnerable.


-------->>>>>>>>gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Jaron Bernstein]

Gene,

But there are strikes specifically described. Petter has some and Ringeck (I am working from memory here) has one where you punch him in the belly and then do a hip throws.

[philippewillaume]

Yes Ringeck have some strikes, in fact even, and really I should say only, in armour he advice kicking the knee or the gonads of the opponents.

However that is what Ringeck says about stike
Item, in allen ringen, die du tust, (74 r ) so nym war vnderhalden obergepürt, vnd och vff ston. Darnach nym war, ob es dir nott tut, mort stoßvnd bain bruch.

Item in all wrestling that you do, so find (nehmen war= warhnemen) under hold (pins) are superior/ straightforward /chiefly researched (gepurt=purer= pur machen, untersuchen Ins reine bringen) and also auf stons (up rising). Accordingly find, if you need to (not tun=noetig sein) murderstike and leg break.{accordingly find, if it is an emergency, murder strike and leg break}

I would say that it goes in Jeff’s way; I see the aim of ringen to be a pin so that we can stab him in peace.
I think ringeks tells us that the strike are there so that we can wrestle. I really link them to the use of atemi in aikido/daito ry/ju-jutsu.
Von mort stossen: der erst.
About the murder stike the first
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

Grab the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. With that grab him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up (ligen can have the idea of accepting the technique as in blending with it and raising up to go against.)
Ie to take the slack, control the opponent and so damage (ringeck only hit where hit hurts)


From my own experience in armour (and that is not really worth more than that…)

The vulnerability of the joints really depends of the armour. So I would say that joint manipulation might be relatively restricted
The only thing that works reliably is Nikkio (rotating the wrist one way and eth elbow the other), which is what ringeck shows in his harness wrestling.
I thing as well that some shiho nage (bone break in the armoured sections) will works

Against Milaness harness, the main problem is that the whole arm is in one pieces (with articulation) whatever how tight the arm cannon are, the forearm still rotates in the armour.
And the articulation and that looseness will protect against arm bars like ikkio, yonkio, gokio where the fore arm position is used against the elbow.
Sankio (the more finger twist version) will be blocked by
Sankio (the more wrist twist) many be hampered by the looseness of the arm in the arm harness and the gauntlet locking with the lower canon.

In a German harness where pieces are not so linked together, you have a separate upper canon; lower cannon and elbow articulation are they are more linked together to the individual piece they protect. So you are not as well protected against those arm bars as in a one piece but again you definitely have a good degree of protection.
The same goes for the leg. But if your cuisse is pinned with the greaves it will be ever so difficult to break the leg (but you will be able to throw more easily that without armo)

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

"But there are strikes specifically described. Petter has some and Ringeck (I am working from memory here) has one where you punch him in the belly and then do a hip throws."

This is a good point to dwell on. We have an idea of striking based on our experience of western boxing in its current incarnation. From what I understand, even 100 years ago boxing looked slightly different from what it does now. The advent of the modern glove changed how the game is played. Ive read a bit about this in the context of western vs. Chinese boxing. If you look at the old pics of John L Sullivan, they have that characteristic low guard. From what I understand historically, the primary KO blow during this period was a hard solar plexus shot. Without the gloves, head shots broke as many hands as jaws, and head strikes were really more jabs to open up the harder body shots........very, very similar both in philosophy and technique to classical Chinese Hsing I(my specialty!).....Add to this traditional Thai boxing prefers the elbow to the head instead of the fist.....we see that striking in history was not viewed in the same way as today.

In terms of the quote, I think this reinforces the point. The manuals that show striking seem to use stomach as the highest target.

[philippewillaume]

i would say that is may be a bit of a bold statement <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

In terms of the quote, I think this reinforces the point. The manuals that show striking seem to use stomach as the highest target.

Von mort stossen: der erst.
About the murder stike the first
Greyff den man an mitt der lincken hand ober der gürtel, wo du wilt. Domitt stoß in mitt diner gerechten hand zugeschlossene (73 v )mitt kröfften ansin hertz. Do mitt greyff ain ringen, so es dir beste werden mag, vnnd folgdem ringen mitt brüchen vnd wider brüchen. Die selben bruch vnd widerbruch thu in allen ringen: zu rosß, zu füssen, gewäpnet oder bloß, zu lauffens, ligend oder vffstendig.

Grab the man with the left hand above the belt, where you whish/want. At the same time with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?) /or right hand closed/locked strike at his heart. With that grab him with a wrestling you may think is the best. An follow up with the breaks and counter breaks (if wider is wider=against it is possible to be more breaks wider = wieder but less likely) the same break and counter-breaks done in all the wrestling: on horse by foot, armed (as in armoured) or naked (as in with normal clothes), getting at each other, standing/couching or raising up (ligen can have the idea of accepting the technique as in blending with it and raising up to go against.)
èPunch to the solar plexus (as far as I can tell they believed that the heart was there). The important bit is the grab before the strike, then wrestle after

Der dritt mort stoß.
Greuff den man an mitt der lincken hand ob der gürtel; vnd schlach inmitt gerechten hand zu geschlossen an den schlauff, so du hertest magst;vnd domitt ain starck ringen vff din bestes.

Grab/attack the man with the left hand above the belt, and strike him with the hand appropriately (gerechten substantive form of gerechter ?)/right hand closed/locked in the temple (slaf= Schläfe) or (slouf=sluf=slopf=slupf) noose, springe like the French collet or a hollow or a recess). As hard as you can and with that wrestle strongly onto your best
è self explanatory, punch to the temple or between adam&amp;#8217;s apple and the junction of the sternum and the collar bones..

Ain mort stoß.
A murder stroke
Stoß in mitt baiden fernnsten henden zu geschlossen, so du härtest magst,an den halß. Darnach ring.

With the furthest of either/both hands closed, so that you may be at the hardest, strike him at the neck after that wrestle

[Jaron Bernstein]

Phillip,

How I wish I could translate like you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It sounds to me like striking and grappling are used together, in the Lichtenaur tradition at least.

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

If we were being strictly academic, I agree that is a bold statement.

My point is merely that the "headhunting" style of boxing that we see on TV is not representative of the whole history of pugilism worldwide, much less in the west.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Kyro

Well you are right about the glove changing the game of boxing, Jack Broughton started to apply rule's to boxing in about 1740-50 because there were a few guy's who were killed and he wanted to make it safer, then in 1860 we had the Queensberry rule's.

So i would say basicly what we see now started in about 1740 of course there were many chnge's between then and now as you pointed out glove's, I am of the opinion that striking before this was used to facilitate grappling were much more damage could be done very quickly.

That is strictly my opinion.

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

All jokes asides, I would agree with Jaron and Jeff here.
Though may be we could add a get out of jail free card if we use the target of the stossen as pressure point. (I mean points where you apply pressure)

About boxing, may be we could consider Mendoza as father of &amp;#8220;modern boxing&amp;#8221;
He seems to hitting the face and body as much. (http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Mendoza/)

None the less I find that Mendoza has a strong flavor of wing chun
And I agree with krysto about modern boxing in fact I would extend it to a fair number of martial sports.

phil

[Jaron Bernstein]

Codex Wallerstein:

Plate 127 (pg. 264)

"So one more trick: if it happens that you are fighting some and you are standing in front of him, put you hands on your stomach, with the right hand above; if he strikes at your face with his fist, hit his fist with your open right and, as shown."

Plate 121 (pg 252):

"So someone has taken your with both arms forward from the front and holds you firmly: grasp his collar with your hand, as depicted here; put your finger in the triple hole or small depression at the front of the throat; and extend your finger to stab him with in his throat. This is quite painful"

[philippewillaume]

thank <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

i know it a bit word for word and not especially good english but I think it leaves people free-er to come to their own conclusion.

ps i like those dobringer bits...

[Jason Erickson]

It sounds to me like striking and grappling are used together, in the Lichtenaur tradition at least.

From a purely practical standpoint, there is no need to separate grappling and striking. A strike might be immediately converted to a forceful grip and throw. A forcefully applied grip might have the same stunning impact as a blow.