Article on Master Ott's Wrestling

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Jason Erickson
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Article on Master Ott's Wrestling

Postby Jason Erickson » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:36 am

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/master-o ... tling.html

I am becoming acquainted with ARMA and may join a new group in my area. My background includes about 15 years of grappling and other martial arts, so I was very excited to hear that ARMA actively promotes training unarmed tactics too.

I was, however, a bit disappointed by the article noted above. Based on the excerpts of translations included in the article, the author's interpretations seem off-base. I am considering writing my own interpretation of Ott's principles, but first want to research the matter further. If you have links to translations, transcriptions, or other samples of Master Ott's teachings, please post them here.

Thanks!
Jason Erickson

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:42 am

Jason

You might want to put your full name on your profile it is required on the forum.


Based on the excerpts of translations included in the article, the author's interpretations seem off-base.


would you care to elaborate? Might be an enlightening discussion.



Jeff
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Article on Master Ott's Wrestling

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:14 am

You might also take a look at the other period wrestling manuals (there are many) as they provide context into the techniques of Ott's world.

Jason Erickson
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Postby Jason Erickson » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:23 am

Jeff - I updated my profile, thanks for the suggestion. Now, why do I feel the author's interpretations are off-base?

It is possible that we are simply faced with a poor translation. It is also very possible that Ott was a great at wrestling but poor at teaching. (This is all too common.)

I feel that the author's interpretations take the translated text at face value and do not reflect a deeper grasp of the principles that Ott may have been trying to convey. For example, what Ott meant by "the quickness" may or may not have meant actual physical speed. The remaining text indicates that Ott may have been referring to well-developed timing (which gives an impression of quickness, irrespective of actual speed), or he may have been trying to convey a concept of forward pressure intended to force the opponent to remain in a reactive mode, or something else altogether. A more thorough review of Ott's (and his contemporaries') teachings would shed much light on the matter.

Jaron - I agree. I welcome any suggestions on which manuals to start with.
Jason Erickson

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:59 pm

Jason

This is Fabian Von Auerswald, 1539.

http://www.klocktower.org/ringen/auerswald/

The original and an interp. is there.

I can agree with what your saying, what is in the article though is only a limited sample of the manual so that could also color the perception, I would love to see an english translation of Ott.


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Jaron Bernstein
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Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:14 pm

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/codexwpro.htm

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1357

My personal favorite has a sweet wrestling/dagger chapter:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Combat-Germ ... F8&s=books

A good chunk of Fiori is wrestling as well:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/topics/

Those are just a few.

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Jeffrey Hull
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Schnelligkeit

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:34 pm

I would concede that my comrades may have served their case better by some judicious editing of the translation.

However, I think that they understand the German wording and meaning thereof.

The contentious example at hand is that of schnelligchait or “quickness”.

Perhaps I would rephrase the translation dealing with "quickness" like this:

In all wrestling there should be three things --

The first is skill.
The second is quickness.
The third is correct deployment of strength.

Thus you should note that the best is quickness which does not allow someone to use a counter.

Next you should note that with every weaker foe you should wrestle before he attacks, and with every equal foe you should wrestle while he attacks, and with every stronger foe you should wrestle after he attacks.

And in all wrestling "before" it is quickness that works. In all wrestling "while" it is balance that works. And in all wrestling "after" it is the knee-joint / yielding way that works.


It is clear to me that Jud Ott says schnelligchait because he meant “quickness”. If he had meant "pressure" then he likely would have used the word drucken / trucken found commonly among the fight-masters of Kunst des Fechtens. Furthermore, I would assert that advocacy of "pressure" instead of "quickness" as a main tactic (or worse yet as a constant tactic) in this sort of wrestling only sets one up to get more readily countered with a hip-throw, leg-trip or even hurled by the notorious Bubenringen. Such an agressor gets treated as does the stronger foe. Quickness and correct deployment of strength drive one’s skill.

I think regarding all the Jud Ott principles and specifically the one of "quickness" that the authors demonstrate ample understanding. The commentary indicates this to me. Let us look at how they analyse "quickness":

The next trait is “quickness”, which allows one to react quickly, regain initiative and, in connection with the foresight (developed during learning new techniques and devices, leading to the minimization of the results of being surprised or accidents) makes the wrestler a formidable opponent.

The role of “quickness” is underlined as the most important from the three aforementioned traits. The master adds that the quickness does not allow one’s opponent to make a counter. It is a very sensible message. When the attack reaches its target thanks to its speed, then the opponent remains without any chance to apply a countermeasure.

Next we read, what trait or solution works in a given time situation – “Before”, “With”, “After”. When we act “before”, the quickness works. Without it we won’t succeed “before”.


So I think that the authors understand Jud Ott ringen.
JLH

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JeffGentry
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Postby JeffGentry » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:00 am

Hey Jeff

The contentious example at hand is that of schnelligchait or “quickness”.

Perhaps I would rephrase the translation dealing with "quickness" like this:

In all wrestling there should be three things --

The first is skill.
The second is quickness.
The third is correct deployment of strength.

Thus you should note that the best is quickness which does not allow someone to use a counter.

Next you should note that with every weaker foe you should wrestle before he attacks, and with every equal foe you should wrestle while he attacks, and with every stronger foe you should wrestle after he attacks.

And in all wrestling "before" it is quickness that works. In all wrestling "while" it is balance that works. And in all wrestling "after" it is the knee-joint / yielding way that works.


I like the wording you use.

Next you should note that with every weaker foe you should wrestle before he attacks, and with every equal foe you should wrestle while he attacks, and with every stronger foe you should wrestle after he attacks.


This sound's like the way it is worded in CW and so in my mind i think it help's reinforce it because i have seen it before.

Some of the "contention" might be because it was our polish friend's translating it to english, which is not there native language so there style of writing might be found a little unconfortable by some.

I understood there point and did not disagree, from the pic's and such in there article it does go right along with my knowledge of wrestling, I think they did a fantastic job.


Jeff
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Jason Erickson
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Postby Jason Erickson » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:45 pm

Jeff Hull -

I appreciate your thoughtful reply, and feel that your understanding of Ott's material may far exceed that of the article's authors. Though I do not agree with your assessment of their comprehension, I respect your opinion.
Jason Erickson


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