A Beginner

[Magnus Karlsson]

Hello, I am terribly fascinated by RMA and would love to learn how to utilize these techniques, however, I do have some questions.
Can the wrestling part be used without weapons? Is it good enough to stand on its own feet?
Does it fall under the KISS-principle? (Keep it simple, stupid)
Where should I start if I'm interested in teaching myself? What should I read?
(I want to learn the wrestling first before I add weapons)

Thanks for any answers!

[Brent Lambell]

I have read and heard of masters stating that wrestling is the foundation of all fencing - sorry I cannot remember who but I am sure someone here will know off hand. Other historical fencing groups teach grappling first as a basis for working up to dagger, then from dagger to sword (longsword and arming sword). The principles build on top of each other in this manner.

Speaking for myself, there is a lot more unarmed material available than I would have ever thought before I came to ARMA. Ott Jud is a big name for kampfringen, but there are more. I think most of us in this historical martial arts community would argue (effectively) that kampfringen can stand on its own keeping in mind the social context in which this art was used. People wore heavy clothing in public and heavy armor in warfare so techniques were developed with these facts in mind.

Aside from missing a fully developed hand or leg striking system, I would say historical unarmed combat is very effective.

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[LafayetteCCurtis]

I have read and heard of masters stating that wrestling is the foundation of all fencing - sorry I cannot remember who but I am sure someone here will know off hand.

Fiore dei Liberi? And I don't think he's the only one.

[ChristineChurches]

Doebringer states that "the whole art of combat originates from ringen" several times throughout his manual.

[Jay Vail]

Hello, I am terribly fascinated by RMA and would love to learn how to utilize these techniques, however, I do have some questions.
Can the wrestling part be used without weapons? Is it good enough to stand on its own feet?
Does it fall under the KISS-principle? (Keep it simple, stupid)
Where should I start if I'm interested in teaching myself? What should I read?
(I want to learn the wrestling first before I add weapons)

Thanks for any answers!

Wrestling can and is definitely used with weapons -- all of them in fact, although you mostly see it in conjunction with the longsword and the dagger.

Most of the old manuals contain instruction on wrestling. In some cases it is treated separately, but often it is shown during the use of a weapon. The dagger is a case in point. All the unarmed (and many of the armed) dagger techniques involve wrestling of one sort or other.

If you insist on starting from the manuals to learn this material, I would suggest the following as places to begin:

Flos Duellotorum, by dei Liberi.
Codex Wallerstein
Gladiatoria (the dagger material)
The Art of Combat, by Joachim Meyer (again the dagger material)
Marozzo (dagger material)
All versions of Talhoffer

It may be very difficult for you to reconstruct medieval wrestling just from the books. I have seen some very strained interpretations by people who have no wrestling/grappling background. IMO it helps a great deal to have some such experience before you begin because all (or almost all anyway) of the techniques described in the manuals can be found in one Asian martial art or another. Indeed, virtually every one I learned in judo, which I highly recommend as a place to start, along with hard aikido, since many judo dojos no longer teach the self defense side of judo, which will give you the arm locks that are so prevalent in ringen.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

Where should I start if I'm interested in teaching myself? What should I read?

I'd suggest finding a HEMA-group near where you live, where you can learn.
As Jay Vail says, you would have to interpret what the books mean.
Without a group, or at least a sparring partner, you wouldn't have any way to verify if your interpretations might work, or if it's just foolishness.

[Magnus Karlsson]

The closest group to me is in Östersund according to the websites found on google(I live in Umeå).
I would be able to sparr with a couple of friends of mine.
To clarify, I firstly want to find free manuals, since I'm not sure if this is for me yet.

[Brian Hunt]

Here are some free online translations of a few German wrestling - ringen manuscripts that may peak your interest.

http://klocktower.org/ringen/auerswald/
http://www.thearma.org/essays/WurmTandC.html
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Passchen/Passchen.htm
http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_steenput_1000.htm

And the Italian version of wrestling - Abrazare

http://www.the-exiles.org/FioreProject/Project.htm
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/liberi/wildRose/fiore.html

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Magnus Karlsson]

Thank you all!
I do have one more question.
Would it work to train with Boffer weapons?
http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Boffer/I ... eapons.jpg
I've noticed that the videos on youtube generally use blunted longswords.
I realize that the weight and handling is a bit off, but the techniques ought to work nonetheless right?

[Alan Abu Bakr]

I realize that the weight and handling is a bit off, but the techniques ought to work nonetheless right?

Weight, balance, handling, probably proper length and form (e.g. no cross guard) are all off (and some of them don't have clear sides and edges either).
I would rather suggest either building padded weapons according to ARMA's instructions, buy from RSW, get this longsword (but not any of the other weapons on that site) or try seeing if anyone here will make and sell you padded weapons, according to the above mentioned instructions.

Other then that, there are groups who use shinai and make a cross guard and pommel for it, as it is generally easier to make but shinai have pretty much the same problems as boffer weapons.
(and no, a shinai won't seriously harm you, as long as you have proper protection)

It is possible to add weights, for weight and balance, and make "edges", but I'd say that you kinda lose the easiness on the way. Having training weapons that are made for HEMA use from the beginning, seems like a better idea. (hmm... and I think shinai have longer hilts then medieval longswords had. There supposed to simulate katanas after all, and thus don't have to be correct in terms of longsword proportions)

Also I suggest getting wooden and/or plastic/nylon wasters (see this thread, where it has been recently discussed), for solo practice and careful training of technique with a partner.

Edit: I forgot to mention the fact that many boffers might be to flimsy (which isn't a problem with a shinai)
Also:
You should use protective gear for your head (and neck) and hands for all suggested weapons (except when doing solo training).