A question of stance

European historical unarmed fighting techniques & methods

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Stewart Sackett
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A question of stance

Postby Stewart Sackett » Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:35 pm

In the early wrestling plates of the Codex Wallerstein the descriptions make reference to the 1st, 5th, 6th & 7th horizontal stances & also to a balanced stance. I’m fairly confident in my understanding of the specific techniques show but have never come to any satisfying conclusion as to why these stances hold their specific names or what element of each stance defines it’s name.

Does anyone have a definition of what makes a “Horizontal Stance”?

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Jeff Hansen
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Re: A question of stance

Postby Jeff Hansen » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:41 pm

Stewart Sackett wrote:In the early wrestling plates of the Codex Wallerstein the descriptions make reference to the 1st, 5th, 6th & 7th horizontal stances & also to a balanced stance. I’m fairly confident in my understanding of the specific techniques show but have never come to any satisfying conclusion as to why these stances hold their specific names or what element of each stance defines it’s name.

Does anyone have a definition of what makes a “Horizontal Stance”?

The untranslated terminollogy is actually "twirch". "Horizontal stance" is simply the best tranlation of that word. However, The numbered techniques are clearly throws and not stances as we use the term in a modern context. On the other hand there is one plate in the codex which advises a certain action if someone " comes at you in the Horizontal stance". This implies that the word "stance" as we would use it does apply. Now, my personal opinion is this: in RenMA, if you ignore everything above the waist, we essentially have two correct ways to arrange our feet. Der Waage (sp?) /the balanced stance, and our standard swordsman's stance (weight slightly foreward, feet at approx. 45 degrees, etc.). I think that our "standard swordsman's stance" = horizontal stance, and the numbered techniques are throws using that stance, as opposed to, for instance, the "fireman's carry" throw which requires you to assume der waage before lifting your opponent.

And, actually, the Codex W has plates depicting "horizontal stances" numbered 3 through 7. The 3rd is plates 36 and 38, the 4th is plate 40. If you have identified the 1st please tell me where.

Disclaimer: My copy of the Codex W is loaned out at the moment, so I'm working from memory and notes.
Jeff Hansen
ARMA FS
Birmingham, AL study group leader

"A coward believes he will ever live
if he keep him safe from strife:
but old age leaves him not long in peace
though spears may spare his life." - from The Havamal

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Jeffrey Hull
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:31 pm

I am interested in defining those stances too, so the info so far is helpful, and any further info is welcome.
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Jeff Hansen
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Postby Jeff Hansen » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:25 pm

Jeffrey Hull wrote:I am interested in defining those stances too, so the info so far is helpful, and any further info is welcome.


Additionally, plate 34 appears to fit my criteria for a twirch, however it is not specifically numbered as such.
Is it...
a. the unidentified 2nd twirch?
b. considered a variation of the 5th not warranting special designation?
c. proof that I don't know what the heck I'm talking about?
d. some fourth option I haven't thought of?

waddaya think?
Jeff Hansen

ARMA FS

Birmingham, AL study group leader



"A coward believes he will ever live

if he keep him safe from strife:

but old age leaves him not long in peace

though spears may spare his life." - from The Havamal

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Jeffrey Hull
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Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: USA

2nd?

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:51 pm

I would assume 2nd, but I cannot prove it. :?

Maybe if we look at Duerer, as he replicated with far better graphic artistry, a bunch of the Codex Wallerstein wrestling in his 120 plays. :idea:

Perhaps there are some insights there for stances, perhaps not. :idea:
JLH



*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*


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