Stick/Knife Questions

[Maarten Franks Spijker]

I think that I had more questions, but I can only remember two at this time:

1) There is a brief section in Fiori's Abrazare section on use of a small stick. Has anyone researched more into this? Are there any other manuals that mention this? I would think that its mention is significant.

2) It seems like knife length has a lot to do with the effectiveness of the techniques in Fiori, Talhoffer, and other's works. Many of the techniques don't seem to work with and against shorter knives that are more commonly carried today. Any thoughts? Possible "contemporising modifications"?

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker

[Jay Vail]

I think that I had more questions, but I can only remember two at this time:

1) There is a brief section in Fiori's Abrazare section on use of a small stick. Has anyone researched more into this? Are there any other manuals that mention this? I would think that its mention is significant.

2) It seems like knife length has a lot to do with the effectiveness of the techniques in Fiori, Talhoffer, and other's works. Many of the techniques don't seem to work with and against shorter knives that are more commonly carried today. Any thoughts? Possible "contemporising modifications"?

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker

Don't care much about the stick stuff. As to the knife question, almost all the techniques can be adapted for use against or with a tactical folder. Some changes are necessary when facing or using a shorter blade, but the essential principles are the same.

[Stacy Clifford]

I seem to remember from a Bob Charron seminar on Fiore years ago that the techniques with the rod were nearly identical to those with the rondel dagger with regard to defense and grappling, which makes perfect sense since they are basicall the same size and shape. There was a bit less stabbing obviously, but it's still there because, well, getting stabbed with a blunt object doesn't really feel that great either.

[Ken Dietiker]

Well, as to your first question, I don't believe that the four plays with bastoncello (stick) are very significant by themselves, and I do not recall that there are any such examples in another manual or manuscript somewhere. What I believe Fiore's intention was at the end of the Grappling section was to introduce the stick as an improvised tool and an introduction if you will to the next section, that being the dagger. Several times in the manual he emphasizes the need to have the advantage over your opponent in some way, and these are just four simple examples. In the first play he emphasizes the increase in advantage that the stick adds to his defense against his opponent. In the second play he even mentions that the opponent may be armored and he would still win the fight. In the third and fourth of these plays he refers to dagger remedies that have yet to come as they are in the following section, therefore an introduction. But because he has so few, I have to say it's not significant other than to add to the ability to improvise and demonstrate (as he does elsewhere) that anything is a weapon and that any weapon is a multi faceted tool, to let function come before form. For instance, in the last two plays he is sitting down while being attacked. So, imagine he is at dinner, and he has to defend himself from a surprise attack by an unhappy guest, with a wooden soup spoon! I don't believe there is anything more to it than making you think outside the box.

As to the second question, there are some plays in Fiore's dagger section for sure that just don't work as well without the length of the dagger he illustrates. Though the basic underlying principles work pretty much as Jay describes, you are right in that some of those plays just need a longer blade. However, with some adjustment, you can make many of them work anyway. Something to play with, no?

[Corey Roberts]

What about the Bastoncello play where it is used to apply a lock to the neck, on Carta 5b, it says: (with my own quick and imperfect transcription and translation) "Con un bastoncello lo collo to ligato se non te meto in terra averne bon marchato"

With a short stick, I tie up/lock up your neck, if you do not go to the ground as it is well shown/indicated here.

This seems a different kind of technique than one would use with a dagger, although Fiore certainly dosn't spend much time on the use of the short stick, it seems to me still nonetheless to be presented as seperate from the Dagger, although still related.

[Maarten Franks Spijker]

I'm sorry that I didn't reply earlier, I received no notices. Anyways, I'm glad that you put some thought into it. I especially agree with Ken, about the stick. I think this is still significant, because it lets us get a glimpse of their mindset at the time. At first I was thinking that they perhaps also carried a stick like that at times for ceremonial purposes or something, but your theory is much more logical.

I have been studying Chinese martial arts, including Qinna (Muscle tearing, joint locking) and Shuaijiao (Throwing) in China for a while now and have noticed correlations. However, much has been watered down. I believe that CMA and WMA were on par with each other, but as far as I know there were no Vechtboeken written in China, unless you count the Art of War, 36 Strategies, and other such texts.

Right now I am studying Sanda (Free fighting) and have a really good, open teacher (RARE in China) that has studied many aspects of CMA (Even boxing/Muay Thai). We have compared notes many times and when I showed him techniques he was always able to show me a Chinese variant, some better, some lesser. I think it's good to cross train like this because I feel like I learn a lot about the physics of the techniques, how and why they work.

They were impressed once, though. A student was playing around with a Shuangjiegun (Nunchaku) and I mentioned to him that these are virtually useless in the way he was using them. He asked me how I would use them and I asked him to attack me. By that time a small crowd had gathered and I avoided his punch and used a variant of the neck-lock stick technique and threw him. They asked me where I got it from and soon I was showing them some half-swording techniques with umbrellas. =P They also liked the knife defense in Petter/Liberi where you break their arm over your shoulder and the one in Liberi with an armbar/wrist-lock.

[Ken Dietiker]

I think that the stick plays in Fiore are also there because unlike the rest of the dagger section which follows there is no stabbing. Therefore we see a few uses where the "tool" in question is not stabbing, but being used to subdue instead. Look at some of the other dagger plays and you'll find a few that can do the same and either used with the dagger or the stick. Also, at the end of the Spear section, you'll find two plays where he uses large sticks (more like cut tree branches). The first he has two of the branches and the second he has one branch and his dagger, both against the spear. These two plays are actually identical to the last two plays of spear, which come immediately before, the only difference is that he has changed out his own spear for tree branches.
The inference is obvious, no?

[Jay Vail]

I think that the stick plays in Fiore are also there because unlike the rest of the dagger section which follows there is no stabbing. Therefore we see a few uses where the "tool" in question is not stabbing, but being used to subdue instead. Look at some of the other dagger plays and you'll find a few that can do the same and either used with the dagger or the stick. Also, at the end of the Spear section, you'll find two plays where he uses large sticks (more like cut tree branches). The first he has two of the branches and the second he has one branch and his dagger, both against the spear. These two plays are actually identical to the last two plays of spear, which come immediately before, the only difference is that he has changed out his own spear for tree branches.
The inference is obvious, no?

Perhaps they are there to make the point that the techniques are applicable to more than one weapon, a point that may apply to the sword stuff as well.

[Brent Lambell]

Perhaps they are there to make the point that the techniques are applicable to more than one weapon, a point that may apply to the sword stuff as well.

I agree completely. I have not had a chance to train many of the techniques in Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat but I recognized many principles and techniques that could apply with the longsword or possibly any other weapon. Just as many masters state ringen is the foundation of fencing, the more I learn about the art as a whole the more it seems interconnected and built on core principles not individually packaged techniques.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Perhaps they are there to make the point that the techniques are applicable to more than one weapon, a point that may apply to the sword stuff as well.

I agree completely. I have not had a chance to train many of the techniques in Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat but I recognized many principles and techniques that could apply with the longsword or possibly any other weapon. Just as many masters state ringen is the foundation of fencing, the more I learn about the art as a whole the more it seems interconnected and built on core principles not individually packaged techniques.

In this instance that you can use improvised weaponry in the same manner as proper tools (swords/rondels).