History Channel - "Conquest"

[Gene Tausk]

Saw a fantastic program on THC "Conquest" program. The host took a look at boxing and wrestling from a historical perspective. He emphasized that the two arts have long roots in Western antiquity and are indeed effective fighting arts.

Much of the program was spent with the narrarator learning the basics of Freestyle wresting and going at it with a champion. He didn't last long, which I guess was to be expected, but the viewer was able to see the fluidity, effectiveness and power of this "Western" art.

I notice that once the narrarator went out of his way to mention that martial arts have an Asian bend in our society, but Western arts were (are) just as effective.

A great program and highly reccomended if anyone gets the chance to see it.

BTW - question for Babylon 5 fans. Was the narrarator of this program the same guy who played the character of "Galen" the technomage on the short-lived but excellent spinoff from B5, "Crusade?" I think it was but cannot be certain.

BTW again - tommorrow night (Monday April 7, 2003), the program will be investigating stone-age weapons. Should be good, even if it is off-topic.


----------->>>>>>>>>>gene tausk

ARMA Unarmed Forum Moderator

[Shane Smith]

Thats good to hear Gene! The show also runs pieces on Medieval Swordsmanship as well,and while entertaining,those episodes continue to peddle half-truth and out-right false information as fact. Based on your recommendation,I will keep an eye out for this particular episode.Thanks for the heads-up. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Brian Hunt]

I recorded that one. I enjoyed it a lot. It was a little brief when they talked about pugalism (boxing) but what was presented was well done. I also caught the part where he said that western martail arts were quite effective as well as eastern martial arts. It was fun to watch him get wrapped up like a pretzel. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt

[Tony_Indurante]

You know, I really want to like "Conquest"- mostly because I like the host (yes he was Galen on "Crusade"), but once again this show leaves me flat.

I'm not sure if it's the 1/2 hour format or just poor research skills, but every show I've seen promotes falacies that even basic research can and would turn up.

The one on Unarmed combat was not an exception.

While they show some pretty poor examples of ancient "Western" HTH, they totally skip oven medieval and renaissance sources, which are better illustrated and have text instructions.

They barely touched on pugilism. The information that was provided was again pretty inaccurate.

The training sessions that were shown had no rhyme or reason to them and just looked like a bunch of amatuers fooling around?

This show needs better researchers and an hour long format to be able to even have a chance on covering the topics well.

ps: I watched the stone age show last night and thought it was one of the worst yet.

This is becoming like a "car wreck" show for me...I don't want to watch, but I just can't turn away. Ohhh, the carnage....

[Gene Tausk]

Tony:

Far be it from me to come to the rescue of a TV program of which I have only seen 3 episodes, but I think you are being a little too harsh.

It is true that they skipped over the Mid and Renn arts, but that was intentional. I think the intent was to show that boxing and wrestling techniques are found in antiquity, and thus Mid and Renn stuff is not relevant to the program.

What specifically did you find inaccurate about the part on pugilism?

I think the point of having the untrained people at the beginning attempt the wrestling techniques was to demonstrate that one could actually learn the techniques from the illustrations at Beni-Hassan.

I agree that an hour long show would be better, but given the amount of history illiteracy in America, I would be happy for 15 minutes!

Also, what specifically did you find wrong with the one on the Ston Age? I thought it was pretty decent, even if there was some overacting (but hey, he was Galen).


-----------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
ARMA Unarmed Forum Moderator

[Tony_Indurante]

It is true that they skipped over the Mid and Renn arts, but that was intentional. I think the intent was to show that boxing and wrestling techniques are found in antiquity, and thus Mid and Renn stuff is not relevant to the program.

I was under the impression that they were just showing western-styled MA, if they meant to show only things from antiquity...well I must have missed that part.
I will still contend that medieval and renn stuff would help show a continuous line of progression from antiquity to now, especially considering that the climax of the show was basically modern collegiate wrestling. I thought the show was trying to portray the western arts as martially effective. The modern wrestling tie-in doesn't show Western MA as a viable combat system, but it does imply more sporting applications.

What specifically did you find inaccurate about the part on pugilism?

Going from memory
The leather hand wraps. Bare knuckle prize fighting was prevelent all the way up through the early 1900's. To state that bare knuckle fighting hurt the hands so badly that they had to resort to leather wraps to protect the hands seems a bit of a stretch. Wrapping the hands in anything other than a padded glove is going to result in a lot more damage on the recieving end- I know the cestus was used, but the comparison between the modern boxing glove and the cestus is, again, a bit of a stretch.

I think the point of having the untrained people at the beginning attempt the wrestling techniques was to demonstrate that one could actually learn the techniques from the illustrations at Beni-Hassan.

Except that they didn't show the new people learning any techniques-though this may just be due to the limited time alloted to the show. However, they would have been better off leaving the time mis-spent on pugilism to show these actual techniques rather than the few shots of the team playing around..

Now, don't get me wrong, I want this show to succeed, I just think it needs more research.

[Brian Hunt]

the program did not leave me with the impression that the leather wraps were to protect the hands. I instead thought they were placed there to do more damage to your opponent than for your protection. I believe the romans took the concept of wrapping the hands even farther by embeding bits of metal, glass etc. in the cestus so there would be more blood for the spectators.

just my 2 cents worth (if its worth that. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

[Jay Vail]

Gene, I regret that the show's emphasis on collegiete wrestling was its great weakness. It did virtually nothing to show viewers the richness and depth of true western combat wrestling. Collegiete wrestling is a tepid sport compared to kampfringen. Ultimately I found the program shallow and misleading. It would have greatly benefited by work with Keith Myers or John.

[Gene Tausk]

Jay:

I tried looking at your background, but you have not stated anything on your identification page which tells me which arts you practice or have practiced.

Given this, then, I have to assume that you have not experienced wrestling, either GR or Freestyle against a serious wrestler.

Wrestling, especially at the serious collegiate level and definitely at the Olympic level is MOST CERTAINLY NOT a "tepid sport." Wrestlers at this level are high-level athletes and skilled martial artists who know how to take someone down and pin them in a very short amount of time. Like, try 3-4 seconds. Serious wrestlers, both GR and Freestyle, are more than able to handle their own against Judo, Jujutsu, Sambo and other stylists, to say nothing of strikers. I respectfully suggest you do some serious mat time against wrestlers at this level and then come away and tell me what a "tepid sport" it is. Collegiate wrestlers are dangerous people. I wrestled GR for some time, and when I lived in Russia, I had a chance to go at it with some hard-core Russian GR wrestlers. To say I received an education would be a massive understatement.

Freestyle wrestling in many ways inherits the old Kampfringen techniques, just as Judo inherited many older Jujutsu techniques. Freestyle wrestlers, and GR wrestlers for that matter, can be easily cross-trained in the more martial applications of grappling without too much difficulty.

Once again, I feel odd coming to the defense of a program like "Conquest" of which I have only seen a few episodes, but what I think the producers were trying to accomplish was to demonstrate that the richness of Western wrestling, which began with the Egyptians and was practically a religion with the ancient Greeks, lives on well into the 21st century. Freestyle wrestling is the most direct way to show this link since this is the style of Western wrestling to which many of us will automatically refer when we hear the word "wrestling."

It goes without saying, of course, that the program would have benefitted from interviewing John and Keith, but I stand by my position that they did a decent job in demonstrating the richness of at least part of Western martial history. For a half-hour program, old Galen is to be congratulated.

----------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
ARMA unarmed forum moderator

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would only add that a book by Dan Gable might be a good place to start, as far as getting a big-picture introduction to Olympic wrestling from a guy who was one fearsome champion wrestler, who is - dare I say it - a master at such. JH

[Brian Hunt]

A few years ago, I had a chance to spar against a former high school wrestler who during his years as a wrestler had managed to become the wyoming state champion in I believe the heavy weight division. At the time I was a heavy practitioner in eastern martial arts. I could only get in maybe one to three strikes before he was grappling with me and taking me to the ground. Luckly I had a some ground fighting training and knew some dirty tricks that he had not been taught in his training. But he still would have done a great deal of damage to me while I was trying to do damage to him. It was a fun and educational experience and I came away with a MUCH higher respect for the art of sport wrestling. It may have rules that deem it a sport, but it's application can be much more than that. Don't always knock something because it has a sport designation.

Just my 2 cents.

Brian Hunt. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

Gene, I have posted my experience before on this forum, and I will repeat it here. I started judo training in 1964 at age 12. I trained for two years. Subsequently, I had many opportunities to use judo in streetfights as I was often the target for bullies during my HS years. I have had knives pulled on me four times and I have been stabbed twice.

In 1970 I began studying karate, which I worked at for two years. There was a brief hiatus, after which I studied jujutsu (not the brazilian kind which barely merits the word jujutsu, but Japanese kind) for two years, then I ranked in TKD, and ran the tournament circuit during the 70s, with mixed success. In 1980, I changed to Cuong Nhu, an eclectic system founded by a Vietnames gentleman. It contains elements of Shotokan, vovinam, wing chun, judo and aikido. I did that for more than 15 years. Currently I am training with some Parker kenpo people.

I have fought collegiete wrestlers and there are many techniques which they do not use and which make them less than efficient in combat. They do not lock the elbow, the wrist or the fingers and are very vulnerable to attacks to these joints. You can defeat them relatively easily by attacking these weaknesses since they are not prepared to deal with them. Also, eye and throat pokes work well. Many is the time, I have had a wrestler get me on the ground thinking he is going to work me over, only to finish him with a good eye poke. The key is not to fight their fight but your own.

Collegiete wrestlers are poor on their feet compared to a judo stylist, and only come into their own when they are on the ground, where they can be quite effective, if you fight their fight.

That said, there is still a lot to be learned from an Olympic style wrestler. One must remember that the really bad stuff has been taken out of it because it is a sport, not combat.

[Gene Tausk]

Jay:

OK, now that I know about your MA background, I can tailor my reply to more specific points. BTW, you might want to put this stuff on your ID section so others can know your martial background as well.

Does "true" Freestyle or GR wrestling teach arm locks and chokeholds? No, of couse not. Does "true" Sambo teach chokeholds? No.

However, these arts teach the foundations of grappling, namely balance, sensitivity to the opponents motions, the ability to use leverage and the attacker's weight and momentum against him, the ability to throw and takedown, the ability to work effectively on the ground, etc.

It is true that many of the more dangerous elements of combat have been removed from Freestyle and GR wrestling, but the basics are there. Once the person masters, and I mean really masters the basics, the additional techniques such as elbow locks can easily follow. A good example is Matt Furey, who teaches hardcore submission wrestling. Matt is a former collegiate wrestling champion who also is a Shuaijiao (Chinese wrestling) champion as well. He has a website out there but I don't have the hyperlink handy.

I agree with you that a good fighter does not fight the opponent's fight. When I faced wrestlers, to escape from dangerous situations, I would use techniques such as pokes to the eye, pressure points, armlocks etc. However, when I was training in GR, I learned a great deal about the basics of grappling which have served me well.

It is not wise, respectfully, to make blanket statements that "this is a sport, therefore it is not effective in the street." Judo is a sport, yet you yourself have stated that you were able to use this "sport" to defend yourself.

Kampfringen is a good system of self-defense, but a GR or Freestyle wrestler with knowledge of armlocks and chokeholds is also a formidable fighter.


-------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
ARMA unarmed forum moderator

[Jay Vail]

It is not wise, respectfully, to make blanket statements that "this is a sport, therefore it is not effective in the street." Judo is a sport, yet you yourself have stated that you were able to use this "sport" to defend yourself.

Kampfringen is a good system of self-defense, but a GR or Freestyle wrestler with knowledge of armlocks and chokeholds is also a formidable fighter.

No disagreement there except to say that judo as originally conceived by Kano was NOT a sport. It was corrupted into a sport after WW2, but still retains its nasty combat ways, which you can learn if you do the full range of kata and train with the right instructor.

I don't disagree that training in sporting methods can be helpful preparation for the street. I remember reading some guy once saying that in a true fight he'd rather have a judo guy or wrestler at his back than a karateka, for the simple reason that people from a grappling background tend to be better prepared for the realities of combat.

But the problem with the combat sports lies in their inherent rule-based limitations. You fight as you train. In the chaos of combat, the victor prevails because in the flow he spots an opportunity and capitalizes on it instantly. Limited, sports minded training inhibits the combatant's ability to spot and exploit these openings, these moments of weakness. You must recognize the limits of your training and the fact that those limits often arise from artificial rules. Sometimes the insight only comes from a painful experience.

Another limitation is that styles and instructors make choices in strategtic approaches and techniques. Limitation is inherent in the idea of "system." No system contains everything that is useful or most efficient for dealing with all the problems of combat. People appreciate that now and that is why there is so much cross training going on, people trying to find what they need and what suits their bodies and mental dispositions.

[JeffGentry]

well i can say i have been pinned to the mat by some Olympic medal winning wrestler's, when i was a Marine our chaplin got two or three wrestler's who were in the association for christian athlete's or some such, one was a bronze medalist i think in 1984. Anyway they wanted some of us tough Marine's <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> to wrestle them. me having more ball's than brain's. Decided what the heck the guy i went at it with pinned me 2-3 time's and was stronger than he looked and fast as a dang cat was amazing to be beat by some one of that caliber. To this day i have no clue what happened it happened so fast. collage or olympic wrestler are not to be scoffed at that is from experience. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />