Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

European historical unarmed fighting techniques & methods

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Stuart McDermid
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Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Stuart McDermid » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:34 pm

Hi Guys,

Last Friday I took a modern military combatives course from Geoff "Tank" Todd of New Zealand in the traditions of Nelson, Applegate and Harry Baldock. It was excellent.

In another thread I stated that medieval combatives were superior. I like the footwork and the knife defence better from the medieval stuff. Nothing trumps BJJ for groundwork IMHO.

Anyway,
I did learn some interesting things about the way close combat blows are thrown that may be of interest to those reading.

This of course doesn't mean that this is the way they were done historically, just that this was the way a hardcore gentleman, trained by a bunch of VERY hardcore gentlemen chooses to strike.

The first was with the edge of hand blow. I had always tried to strike with the sharpest part of my hand when throwing axehands and have figured that the pain involved in hitting hard targets was simply part and parcel of throwing full power disabling strikes.

It turns out that I was throwing the blow ever so slightly "off". The hand should be pronated a few degrees in striking so that you strike with the meaty part of the hand just to the palm side of the edge of the hand rather than right on the bone. The skin here is harder and tougher than that on the extreme edge of the hand making the blow safer for the hand without compromisiong power.

The second revelation was in the position of the front foot relative to the attacker when throwing a horizontal axe hand. There is a tendency, especially if you are a rapier fencer to want to hit the opponent with the toe heading towards their centreline. The is fine but reduces the power you can derive from the hips and also doesn't then line you up for a chin jab, and doesn't help you to "get away" from one of his hands.

So, when throwing a right handed horizontal axehand, you want your foot off the opponents centreline to your right. This way, as you pivot to hit him with the horizontal blow, your left hand is lined up for a tremendous chin jab. We didn't cover this in the class but it is easy to see how the hip throw/chin jab combo is much easier when the same side foot lies beyond the point of contact. You can simply step straight through with the left foot and hook the leg.
The other big advantage here is that you are covered from a right hand counter when you chin jab if your left arm runs along his centreline as it will if you throw the initial blow as I suggested.

If you are studying Medieval Combatives then I strongly recommend taking a lesson or two in Modern Military combatives. Even if you aren't it is a good thing to do.
Cheers,
Stu.

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Casper Bradak
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Casper Bradak » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:05 pm

Thankfully that was one of the first things I was taught about handsword strikes in the modern martial art I study. When I was taking an eclectic asian based style when I was a kid, the instructor broke his hand on some boards during a demonstration by striking them with the actual edge of his hand. Don't do it!
I'm sure that bit of proper form is historical as it has close ties to trial and error and common sense.
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Jay Vail
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Jay Vail » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:20 am

Stu, thanks for sharing those bits with us. As you see, many of the hardcore karate people usually know about the hand rotation thing on shuto -- although clearly some do not, from not having been taught properly, a real problem in the AMA. The foot placement advice is new. We usually execute the outward shuto from the horse or forward stance. Will try what you’ve described to see if it makes any difference.

And have to agree that the medieval anti knife stuff is the best I’ve seen in years doing Asian MA. I’ve randoried it and found it to be the most effective thing I’ve ever trained for defending against the knife/dagger. Great stuff. Love it. Can’t recommend it enough for anyone interested in something ancient that continues to be useful today.

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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Shane Smith » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:12 am

I was likewise taught by my Asian MA Master to strike hard targets with the outermost,fleshy part of the palm.I've broken concrete on several occasions that way and I can say for sure that it works...I won't tell you what happened the first time a guy I know <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> broke concrete with a hammer fist and committed so fully to the strike that he broke through the slab(which was elevated 16" on blocks)with ease and then struck all of the broken and irregular bits of concrete that were now laying on the concrete floor below as he followed through.This guy thought that concrete would be much harder to break than it was and imagine his surprise when he follows through the strike and hears a second "cracking" noise a split second after the slab broke and his hand met the shattered concrete on the floor below? <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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Gene Tausk
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Gene Tausk » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:04 pm

Stewart, et. al.:

Couldn't agree more. The proper placement and rotation of hands, when the hands are used in striking, is critical. It is one of the more rational bases for learning breaking in AMA (no need to go into detail on the irrational bases...)

The excellent examples discussed also displays the necessity of attempting techniques on targets, alive or otherwise, rather than just chopping air in form practice.


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Jay Vail
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Jay Vail » Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:23 am

The excellent examples discussed also displays the necessity of attempting techniques on targets, alive or otherwise, rather than just chopping air in form practice.


Hard targets, absolutely -- a pell for the hands. Don't like breaking though. Can't see much use it it. Makiwari and the heavy bag are the way to go. And of those two, I prefer the heavy bag.

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scott adair
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby scott adair » Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:11 pm

"So, when throwing a right handed horizontal axehand, you want your foot off the opponents centreline to your right. "

Stu,

That makes a lot of sense to me. It reminds me of the way Hans and Alex demonstrated the "zwerchau" at the gathering. They took at step with the right foot off line to the right and pivoted the left around behind to add torque to the blow.

I have been working some empty hand techniques with some ama guys lately and we have been doing a similar thing.

The attack is a right to left knifehand. We step off line to the right and throw up a left block which turns into a grab, while pivoting the left leg behind the right we either use a horizontal palm strike to the side of the head or a knifehand to the neck.
Through the combination of pulling him in a direction he is already going and adding the horizontal head shot you spin him around and to the ground.

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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Guest » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:46 pm

I'm taking a Kenpo Karate class, as well as historical fencing, and I always like finding similarities between the two. I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of european unarmed martial arts and eastern martial arts. It'd also be useful if I could find a european unarmed manual whose pictures/diagrams are easy to follow, and, more importantly, able to take literally. Or, even better, maybe just modern examples.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:57 pm

Yeah,

I rather figured you took Kempo awhile ago due to your Ed Parker quote. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

you might look at this book by Keith Meyer an ARMA member. Here is the page for the review on it, at the bottom of the review is Keith's email address. You need to email him to inquire about his book.

http://www.thearma.org/bookreviews.htm

hope that helps.

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Jay Vail
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Jay Vail » Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:04 am

For instance as one example, the lack (as far as I know at least) of a sword and shield style of fighting in Japan vs. a very sophisticated sword and buckler system in WMA.


Come to my armlock and throw class at Southern Knights and you'll get a comparision.

For a good Euro unarmed manual, see Fiore's unarmed plays against the dagger. Virtually all of those techniques exists in Asian systems.

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Casper Bradak
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Casper Bradak » Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:44 pm

Hey Michael, the unarmed section of the Codex Wallerstein has quite a few techniqes that are identical to ones in your style. At least the opening moves. Fortunately that one is published and translated.
The book of Hans Wurm is all unarmed as far as I know, but untranslated and hard to follow if you don't know much about wrestling or equivalent asian systems.
Worstel Konst is an "excellent" unarmed manual with a variety of technique, and has a good online translation.
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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Jay Vail » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:25 am

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Re: Subtleties in Close Combat Blows

Postby Shane Smith » Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:06 am

Please re-register with your full name as outlined in the forum rules as seen here; http://www.thearma.org/forum/
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