Goliath Plate #232

[Matt Shields]

I have been looking at this plate from Goliath, and I am having difficulty understanding this plate, especially since I cannot find a translation of it.



The movement seems to be offensive for the man on the right, but, I cannot understand what the combatant on the left must have attempted to get his hand in that awkward position.
It also seems to me that the combatant on the left would have the ability to pull the combatant on the right.

The best I can make of this is that the man on the right has the postion to pull to the ground/trip the man on the left.
(Not to mention the perfect range for a shot the the pills.)
If someone could explain this to me I would be quite grateful.

I appologize for not being able to shrink the picture.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Matt,

This post could have gone into the much underused unarmed forum. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, this is my interpretation of this plate based only on the picture.

The guy on the left will be "Bill" and the guy on the right will be "Ted" <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Bill's left and Ted's right arms have come together in what is quite a normal clinch position with each fighting for control.

As or just after the clinch, Bill has attempted an overhook/shoulder grab. Ted has intercepted this attack from below by grabbing Bill's arm. This may be a failed elbow push. Ted is pushing Bill's arm high so that he breaks his balance. Ted has lots of options from here. He could sweep, arm jerk, pass through etc. If Bill regains the initiative he could pull on Ted by dropping his elbow. I would have to assume from the pic though that Ted has the initiative.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

Can anyone make out that third word? I'm seeing "Das zit die stezcth im rinngen." I think that means "This is the ____ in wrestling," but I'm really not sure about that third word (which is too bad, 'cause it's pretty important to the meaning).

What I see is that Bill (using Stu's terms) has grasped Ted about his left wrist or forearm from the clinch, which grip Ted is breaking by rotating his hand/forearm around Bills clockwise (from Ted's perspective) to now seize Bill's wrist from the outside. From this position he will step/pivot to his own right and throw Bill to the ground, pulling down-and-in with his right hand. This is supported by Ted's right foot, which is in a perfect position to throw Bill over.

As with Stu, that's just looking at the text.

Jake

[Randall Pleasant]

Stu wrote:
This post could have gone into the much underused unarmed forum.

Moderator, I'll second Stu's suggestion.

Interesting question and answers.

[Olgierd Pado]

Hi everyone!
Since this is my first post on the forum, let me introduce myself:
I live in Poland, been studying WMA for a few months now, reading this forum, trying to make some sense of the manuals, etc...
Since I am new, do not know much about WMA - I have not posted anything so as not to clutter the forum with irrelevant remarks.
I like Stu's idea of naming guys (makes them more real for me), but I think better names would be:
[color="red"]L[/color]ionel - guy on the left and
[color="red"]R[/color]ichie - guy on the right.
or some other starting with L and R
(not to denigrate your good, honest American names starting with other letters <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />)

cheers
Olgierd

[Richard Strey]

Now, while I'm quite comfortable reading the original von Danzig script, I've not had much exposure to Goliath. But, if I am not totally mistaken, it reads
"Das ist die sterckh
im ringenn"
meaning
"This is the strength
in wrestling"
or, possibly
"This is the strong
in wrestling"
referring to the strong/weak concept.

[Bart Walczak]

It is one of the ringen techniques from Ott or from the Codex Wallerstein too.

From the bind the guy on the left goes with his right hand inside and pushes his elbow inside while with the left hand he goes outside and pulls him by the wrist. He steps with his right leg behind the other guy's left leg to trip him.

Hope this helps.

And hi to Olgierd <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Moved to "Unarmed Art" by popular demand.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jake,

Looks like we pretty much came out at a similar interpretation. My post concentrated on how the combatants got there and your finished it off with more detail. I definitely concur that your finish is the most likely here however all of mine are options.
Good Job.
Stu.

[Gene Tausk]

My 2cents:

In deference to Keanu, let's keep with the "Bill" and "Ted" analogy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ted is pushing outward with his right hand while Bill is pushing down with his left. IMHO, Ted is pressing against the interior forearm mound of Bill, as there seems to be an indentation of Bill's sleeve at Ted's thumb, which suggests pressure. This is painful and Bill appears to be losing his grip. Ted's left hand, meanwhile, is pushing up while Bill's right hand attempts to hold on. Ted is better grounded than Bill and is setting him up for a footsweep while at the same time forcing Bill off-balance by pushing outward with his right hand.

Offhand I would call this a type of "heaven and earth" throw used in Aikido where the situation is as I described it - the person executing the throw moves one of his opponent's arms down or out and the other one up, unbalancing him.

Good move, Shane, in taking this to the unarmed forum.


------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
Unarmed forum moderator

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi guys,

Just my 2 cents also. The fellow on the right can be setting up a control. Imagine your opponent standing in front of you with both his arms out facing forward towards you. Push one of his elbows up and the other down. This then locks his spine and makes his body tilt, opening up a number of things. Among other things, it is one way to set up a hip throw.

Jaron
ARMA-Columbus

[Jay Vail]

More 2 cents. Left is left and Right is right.

Left and Right started in a two arm tie up. Rights left hand was in the usual place in such a tie up on the INSIDE of Left’s forearm. Right changes the grip of his left hand by forming his left hand in a Y, circling it counterclockwise and grasping Left’s forearm between thumb and forefinger. The change in grip allows more efficient unbalancing of Left to his left, Right’s right. This kuzushi is often a prelude to taiotoshi, osotogari or a hip throw (the one where you retail the grasp on the arms rather than circling the waist, can’t remember the name of it).

[Bart Walczak]

How about trying to explain it in the European context, guys?

[Jay Vail]

First, to correct one mistake, if Right starts with his left hand inside during the tie up, he moves his left hand clockwise to obtain the underforearm grasp, not counterclockwise, as I stated above. If his left arm starts on the outside of the tieup, he moves it counterclockwise. Not a big deal. Just get your hand under his forearm and lift up, as this picture seems to capture the guy doing.

Now, about speaking japanese. Sorry about that. I don't know the names of these throws in English, and there isn't a generally accepted name for them in that language. But I will attempt some explanation.

Taiotoshi -- means body drop. This throw involves stretching a leg in front of the opponent (in this cause it would be Right's left leg) and pulling the guy across it. This is not actually a pull as much as it is a pull and turn. The turn adds rotational energy to the action making it more powerful and effective. It is always more effective to turn and pull than to pull alone. Talhoffer has many illustrations that I interpret as taiotoshi varients. I term them varients because the hand positions for off balancing are different than the classic judo taiotoshi (in fact they are very much like what can be found in old jujutsu. The Bujinkan's gansekinage is similar to a Talhoffer throw).

Osotgari -- ouch. This one, to be truthful, I have never seen illustrated in any Euro manual. Probably shouldn't have used it as an example. It involves a cross leg hook. That is Right's left leg in this illustration will hook Left's left leg (if you can keep the rights and lefts straight).

The hip throw is self explanatory. We all know what those are.

[david welch]

Ashi Guruma - Foot Wheel
De Ashi Harai - Advancing Foot Sweep
Hane Goshi - Spring Hip Throw
Hane Maki Komi - Spring Wrap Around
Harai Goshi - Sweeping Hip Throw
Harai Tsuri Komi Ashi - Lifting Pulling Foot Sweep
Hiza Guruma - Knee Wheel
Ippon Seoinage - One Arm Shoulder Throw
Kani Basami - Flying Scissors
Kata Guruma - Shoulder Wheel
Kibisu Gaeshi - Heel Trip Reversal
Koshi Guruma - Hip Wheel
Ko Soto Gake - Minor Outside Hook
Ko Soto Gama - Minor Outside Sickle
Ko Soto Gari - Minor Outside Reap
Ko Uchi Gake - Minor Inner Hook
Ko Uchi Gari - Minor Inner Reap
Morote Seoinage - Two Arm Shoulder Throw
Nidan Ko Soto Gari - Double Outside Reap
Nidan Ko Soto Gake - Double Outside Hook
O Goshi - Major Hip Throw
O Guruma - Major Wheel
Okuri Ashi Harai - Sliding Foot Sweep
O Soto Gake - Major Outer Hook
O Soto Gari - Major Outer Reaping
O Soto Guruma - Major Outer Wheel
O Soto Makikomi - Major Outer Wrap Around
O Soto Otoshi - Major Outer Drop
O Uchi Gake - Major Inner Hook
O Uchi Gari - Major Inner Reaping
Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi - Lifting Pulling Ankle Block
Seoi Otoshi - Shoulder Drop
Sode Tsuri Komi Goshi - Sleeve Lifting Pulling Hip
Soto Makikomi - Outer Wrap Around
Sukui Nage - Scoop Throw
Sumi Gaeshi - Corner Reversal
Sumi Otoshi - Corner Drop
Tai Otoshi - Body Drop
Tani Otoshi - Valley Drop
Tawara Gaeshi - Rice Bag Reversal
Te Guruma - Hand Wheel
Tomoe Nage - Circle Throw
Tsubame Gaeshi - Swallow Flight Reversal
Tsuri Goshi - Lifting Hip
Tsuri Komi Goshi - Lifting Pulling Hip
Uchi Mata - Inner Thigh Throw
Uchi Mata Makikomi - Inner Thigh Wrap Around
Ude Gaeshi - Arm Reversal
Uki Goshi - Floating Hip
Uki Otoshi - Floating Drop
Uki Waza - Floating Technique
Ura Nage - Back Throw
Ushiro Goshi - Rear Hip Throw
Utsuri Goshi - Changing Hip Throw
Yama Arashi - Mountain Storm
Yoko Gake - Side Hook
Yoko Guruma - Side Wheel
Yoko Otoshi - Side Drop
Yoko Wakare - Side Separation