where to start?

[Ryan Ricks]

hi all,

last semester (spring) i focused on sword and shield, and now i think it's time to move on to another skill set. this semester for my study group i want to pursue unarmed combat in addition to our normal long sword curriculum.

but where to start? is there a particular master i should look at first? i have tobler's ringeck book, which has a chapter on unarmed combat. although his interpretations of longsword could be improved, what about the unarmed section? i've also got mark rector's edition of talhoffer, which i think has some unarmed plates.

any help would be great. thanks!

ryan

[Brian Hunt]

Fiore is a good place to start the basics. Both his unarmed and his dagger plays are very good for giving the basics. However, I really like the later Dutch manual written by Nicolaes Petter in 1674 "clear instructions to the excellent art of wrestling", plus Vollstandiges Ring-Buch from 1659 has some nice unarmed techniques in it, and I cannot forget to mention the Codex Wallerstein. Since these all have pictures, they are easier to work out the techniques than the Ringen in Lichtenaur's works. If you want text only, you might also want to look at the ringen of Jud Lew and Ott Jud, there is a transcription of these on the web site for the Poland ARMA group. If you can read old german these would be another good resource, not to mention Hans Wurm ringbuch from 1507 that is found here in the historical manuals section. All of that ought to keep you real busy, but like I said, I would start with Fiore.

Good luck in your training, and I hope this responce has helped.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jay Vail]

There are many good sources of ringen in the old books but I agree with Brian. The place to start is with Fiore’s armed and unarmed plays. They are the best organized, the most comprehensive, and provide the best foundation for Medieval combat wrestling available. These plays are available on the web at www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore. Talhoffer has excellent throws (I marvel at it every time I go through the unarmed and dagger sections), and the Codex Wallerstein is remarkably good, too. However, as a former judo/jujutsu guy, I personally think you’ll need personal instruction from someone who has some experience at this material, or you’ll spend a lot of time running down blind alleys or performing techniques in a dangerous way that could hurt your training partners. If you decide to go it alone, be very careful.

[Roger Soucy]

Fixed link:
http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/fiore.html

[Ryan Ricks]

yeah i have like absolutely no experience with this kind of thing what so ever

[Gene Tausk]

If you have no experience in grappling, and from your posts I am assuming that you do not, then spend the time to get some foundation work.

Since I presume you want to stick with Western arts, get some experience in Greco-Roman wrestling, Freestyle wrestling or Sambo. There should be some instructors around, if not, then get some tapes, get a partner and go for it.

You need the foundations for grappling and then best way to get it, IMHO, is to take advantage of an instructor or 21st century technology (VHS, DVD). Then, the grappling in the fechtbooks will be much more clear.


---------->>>>>>>>>>>>>gene

[Ryan Ricks]

i'm guessing that all of the footwork and other basic principles of longsword will apply to unarmed combat

ryan

[Ryan Ricks]

ok i'm looking at fiore, and i see the "four crowned masters." am i to assume these are the four "guards" for wrestling?

ryan

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Ryan,

yes they are. They have many uses. If you study them you will start to determine them. Boar's tooth is good for blocking strikes, and for doing strikes (such as under the chin), it is also a good way to get a grip on someone (I try to change my fight, . . . ). The posta longa (or long point) is good for warding people off, kind of like doing a football block but with better skelital alignment, creating distance, and gaining a grip or hold (I'm ready to gain my holds, . . .). The Iron Gate gives you a low stance to ward off attacks, come to grips, etc (If you won't beat me with your cunning . . .). The crown is used for coming to grips, pushing your opponent off, and many other things (I come forth wih my arms well forward . . .) Study the empty hand, and the dagger plays and you will better start to understand these 4 fighting positions. Also, remember that like longsword there is both a right and left version of these guards.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

P.S. as you become more aggressive you might want some pads for your forearms, especially when you are studying the dagger plays.

[Derek Gulas]

Don't forget Keith Myer's book on Kampfringen and Dolchfechten: "Medieval Hand-to-hand Combat." It gives a summary of many important techniques from many different Fechtbuecher with illustrations and step by step instructions. I would still recommend getting at least some basic training in grappling before you start though, as it really will help you interpret techniques. You can contact him about getting it by e-mailing him (myers4321@aol.com).

Good luck and have fun!

[Ryan Ricks]

fiore is great. i love his little captions, they're so funny!

i can look at many of the pictures and tell what's going on, others are not so clear.

ryan

[JeffGentry]

Hey Ryan

I love the caption's in Fiore, i have looked at it and i don't realy understand it from the drawing's, Here in columbus we have started to just wrestle not realy using any technique's just kind of wrestling each other and learning as we go, we will usualy do a little dagger work using a few technique's from one of the book's and then just do some wrestling.

I have been reading Farmer Burns and he is a big advocate of speed in wrestling and i have noticed that when we wrestle it is pretty dependant on speed to accomplish alot of thing's and just wrestling with realy no rule's( just don't intentionaly hurt each other) i have noticed i am getting stronger and my endurace is slowly getting better and i am learning some of the more subtle body mechanic's i.e when to grapevine to avoid being thrown.

If your in college you might even be able to get in some instruction through there wrestling team or some member of the team might be willing to give you a little training for free or a small fee.

this is just something's to consider.

Hope it help's Jeff

[Shane Smith]

The Codex Wallerstein is another fine source for unarmed work among other things.

[Jay Vail]

Stew, I must respectfully disagree with the advice to freeplay at wrestling first before mining the manuals for techniques. I've spent years teaching people unarmed stuff, and in my experience, thrusting them into freeplay immediately is not conducive to learning. Most beginners when thrown into freeplay perform terribly. The best way to prepare someone for unarmed combat is to drill individual techniques at the start. Go slow at first while the studen learns the gross motor movements and trains muscle memory, then speed things up and do the techniques more intensely. Once the student has some a grasp of the material, go into semi free play (a half speed sort of free play, not as fully intense as a full bout) so the studen can test the material in an unstressed but fluid environment. Only then should most (and I stress most, because some people are exceptional natural fighters who break this mold) be admitted to full freeplay. I have known people who defended themselves successfully from real attacks (including knife attacks) by relying on techniques they learned and practiced only in drill and never freeplayed.

Doing drill is boring for most people, but repetitions, constant repetitions, are what it takes for most people to absorb the techniques and make them their own.

I agree completely with your admonitions about making the limits of a bout clear and about safety.