the four opening's Meyer

[JeffGentry]

Hey all

Ok i have question about the passage below, from Meyer.

Qoute from Meyer

The last strike is first struck to his right, then further as is shown by the inner digits, and first learn this as instructed with the long then with the half edge, then lastly with the flat as judged into the work. When you can do such, then follow ahead to the next part, namely that you must understand the four openings before the strikes just taught can be retained, or onward your sword's blade will be held off and you will be repulsed with better countering strikes, these are thus the two Main Elements of Fencing, the Origins from which all other elements flow forth, onward follows the third, a large element which is and is named the Practice.

the numbered diagram is just above this in the book.

Is he talking only about twitching or does it sound like he mean's all strike's? To me it sound's like he mean's you need to understand the four opening's to properly attack and defend yourself in any fight.

When Jake was here in Col. he was talking about the Meisterhau and how they would close certain of the 4 opening's and kill in one movement, is that basicly why he is saying you need to know and be mindful of the 4 opening's so you can attack and not be hit or am i confused?

Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

He is talking about a great deal of things. You could get an awful lot out of that paragraph.
He is talking about the opponents openings and yours (inherent in properly striking), striking in various ways with the weapon, and striking to different quarters fluidly and successively. Some are zucken, and some are not.

[Jake_Norwood]

This particular quote, if I'm not mistaken, comes from the section on fencing to the four openings and the accompanying diagram. Here Meyer is outlining a drill, which is better described in the example he gives later. Essentially and literally, to follow the drill exactly, we're looking at a twitching excercise. Thematically, Casper is right.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Ok so this is refering to the drill, wasn't sure but thought it might be. I like to be doubly sure of thing's.

[ChrisThies]

Some ?'s (clarifications?) regarding Meyer's "Wie man nach den vier Blossen fechten sol." [How one shall fence to the four Openings]:
1. Is it correct to say that the proper execution - or intent - of Meyer's drill is to utilize solely variations of the Krumphau and Zwerchau (which both are based upon a 'torqueing' of the sword grip, versus more basic full arm strikes such as an Oberhau or Unterhau), since this drill of his is/eminates from his 'third element of fencing - the Practice ["Practick"]'? I read his "Pracktick" element [phase?] of fencing as being from the bind, or from a thwarted attack. Thus introducing a more basic full arm strike (such as an Oberhau or Unterhau) into this particular drill would not be in the spirit of the assumed intent of this particular drill. Are my assumptions correct?
2. Are "zucken" [twitching] and "Schneller oder Zeckrur" [Rusher or Twitch-hit] the same thing, interchangeable terms? Or is "Schneller oder Zeckrur" more a specific type of "zucken"? And if it is, is it then the specific term for the 'feint' or 'flat strike' type of Meyer's "zucken"?
3. Is the "wechselhauw" [change strike] yet another more specific type of "zucken"?
Thanks.

[JeffGentry]

Hi Chris

1. Is it correct to say that the proper execution - or intent - of Meyer's drill is to utilize solely variations of the Krumphau and Zwerchau (which both are based upon a 'torqueing' of the sword grip, versus more basic full arm strikes such as an Oberhau or Unterhau), since this drill of his is/eminates from his 'third element of fencing - the Practice ["Practick"]'? I read his "Pracktick" element [phase?] of fencing as being from the bind, or from a thwarted attack. Thus introducing a more basic full arm strike (such as an Oberhau or Unterhau) into this particular drill would not be in the spirit of the assumed intent of this particular drill. Are my assumptions correct?

basicly i would say yes you are right there is a passage in Vadi or De Liber(someone help me out here) refering to what i think is something similar talking about a turn of the wrist being quicker, once you start to do it and get some proficiency at it tend's to make more sense, at least to me it did.

Is the "wechselhauw" [change strike] yet another more specific type of "zucken"?

I would say no, i use the change strike more as a feint it is easy to move and not try to hit anything then suddenly change direction and strike, thus a change strike, i do it from Meyer's "changer gaurd".

I am not a linguist so i have no clue as to the interpretation of word's so i can't comment on your second question.

Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

yes its a twitching exercise, but you twitch with long , short or flat and any mixture that makes sense of all 3. Forgeng translates Zucken as (pulling) which i think is a very good name for it, because thats what you end up spending your energy on.

Footwork s very important on the drill too if you are working through the 16 strikes of that numbering diagram with a partner. Where on strikes and the other defends. The footwork of moving from side to side with each strike is very beneficial i think.

I have also found out that you can do this diagram without the Zucken element and follow it with through in the strike so that you cut once on each num,ber and flow into the next number.

In the Forgeng Cd he has taken another drill of Meyers from the Dusack section and modified it for the longsword and I just love it. Very good drill for developing cutting control, good footwork and hand to foot timing. Its called the straight cuts drill.

[Jake_Norwood]

1. Is it correct to say that the proper execution - or intent - of Meyer's drill is to utilize solely variations of the Krumphau and Zwerchau (which both are based upon a 'torqueing' of the sword grip, versus more basic full arm strikes such as an Oberhau or Unterhau), since this drill of his is/eminates from his 'third element of fencing - the Practice ["Practick"]'? I read his "Pracktick" element [phase?] of fencing as being from the bind, or from a thwarted attack. Thus introducing a more basic full arm strike (such as an Oberhau or Unterhau) into this particular drill would not be in the spirit of the assumed intent of this particular drill. Are my assumptions correct?

Those are my assumptions also. Casper's explanation of the drill, further, is right-on, IMO. This comes not from the initial explanation of the diagram, but from Meyer's example on how to use it later on, which utilizes alternating long and short edges and lots of twitching.

2. Are "zucken" [twitching] and "Schneller oder Zeckrur" [Rusher or Twitch-hit] the same thing, interchangeable terms? Or is "Schneller oder Zeckrur" more a specific type of "zucken"? And if it is, is it then the specific term for the 'feint' or 'flat strike' type of Meyer's "zucken"?

Yes and no. The Schneller is a strike that is not meant to land (or, if it does, land hard). It's a distraction. You don't perform the initial part of the schneller as a twitch necessarily--I believe that most any strike can start a schneller out--but insted you "rush" the strike by pulling it short ant twitching away to another opening "in des". So yes, twitching is necessary to perform a schneller, but the schnell'ed hit is not necessarily a strike that originated from a twitch.

Whew.

3. Is the "wechselhauw" [change strike] yet another more specific type of "zucken"?
Thanks.

I believe that it requires "zucken," yes. It's an attack that "starts high, can strike low, and then strike high again." This is easily (and very, very effectively performed) by attacking the opponent's upper right opening with the short edge (not unlike a sotanni strike, with uncrossed arms), then crossing the arms suddenly to strike with the long edge to the lower right opening (this may be a genuine strike or a schneller...see, part of the problem is that none of this really happens in isolation), then potentially schnelling again by twitching the short edge around in a zwerch to the upper left opening. Very fast, very effective. Remember to extend the arms and keep the hilt at head-level.

Jake

[ChrisThies]

Thanks for clarifying the techniques/terminologies to me.
I must have failed to read Meyer's explanation/definition of "zucken", which is clear and quite specific. Instead I incorrectly thought of "zucken" as a more general term [overall category] for quick change strikes to the four Blossen in any fashion. But I now realize that in Meyer terms it is more specific, implicating horizontal movements between the two upper or two lower Blossen. Versus his "Wechselhauw", which is based upon vertical movements to alternating sides.

[Jake_Norwood]

But I now realize that in Meyer terms it is more specific, implicating horizontal movements between the two upper or two lower Blossen.

Or diagonally between a lower opening on one side and an upper opening on the other (or vice-versa).

Jake