Long-sword material translated from Christian Egen

[Hans Heim]

Hi Richard,

yes the Flügel is a"3-cut combo".
First cut a diagonal right to left Oberhau.
Second cut a Unterhau from left to right (With the short edge or with the true edge? This is not clear, but normaly in the Lichtenauer tradition they are always with the true edge).
The third now is the problem, because there is only written "hinder sich" backwards or perhaps better back at. It is not written which edge you use or at which angle you are cutting back at his head.
So if you cut from left to right with a underhau and you miss you usually end in the unicorn (after J.Meyer) right, true edge towards the sky and the false edge towards your left foot.

Now to the interpretations of this "hinder sich" cut:

1. Interpretation: So if you cut from there backwards, you cut at the same line .of the unterhau back at the head of your enemy but with the false edge (not very strony but quick).

2. Interpretation: You cut back at his head with the true edge, at the same line of the unterhau but only in the other direction. You have here a second diagonal oberhau. (Strong, quick and with the true edge)

3. Interpretation: You cut back at his head with a vertical Oberhau with the true edge and this is a Schaitelhau. (Strong, quick and with the true edge but not at the same line of the underhau).
Our problem is perhaps that we use three different languages, first old German, second modern German for our interpretations and third English for the translations.
I think that "hinder sich" was used as I would now use "rückwärts", example: If I garage my car with the exhaust pipe towards the carage door and I now want to drive the car out of the garage without turning the car. Then I would drive the car "rückwärts" backwards out of the garage.


To have a look at the "Bruch" the counter of this action didn`t help also, because it ends already at the second cut.

Bey,

Hans

[Mike Cartier]

Good points hans

There is two problems i have with that interpretation.
1. In the Kron technique the backwards strike is described as "strike backwards with the true edge" indicating to me that the backwards strike is naturally done with the false edge.

2. The final cut of the Flugel does not have a step described, whilst the second cut does have a step described.
i take this to mean there are 3 cuts and one step on the second cut.
Its almost impossible to do that Zwerchau type strike without stepping the right foot to go with it.

great discussion here on this manual, but I am inlined to agree with JC , Mike Rasmusson , keith Meyers and other learned folks here that the manual itself is slightly flawed and not the best thing to spend our time on. The Meyer fechtbuch is much more readable and concise (although it can have its problems too)

I especially love the way Meyer refers to himself as freefencer.
Everyone [censored] something thats free <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hehe i put the word L-o-v-e-s above and it censored me , is love that dangerous:)

[Hans Heim]

Hi Mike,

I agree nearly 100 % with your points 1 and 2.
Only that the first cut of the technique Flügel has also a step.
You gave me something about to think with the zwerchhau. You are right that a zwerchhau from right to left is a possibility for a cut with the short edge from your right. But the zwerchhau is normally a rising or nearly a horizontal cut. Here we have a cut which is (in the line of descent?) going down and there is a second cut with the false edge from right to left and which is going down. It is a schielhau.

How to do?

After the second cut you are in the unicorn (J.Meyer plate E with crossed arms), now:
- roll your left hand counterclockwise away from you
- the tip of your sword performs an circle beside your left side
- uncross your arms and cut down the line of the unterhau at the head of your enemy

(With this motion you could cut very strong schielhaus out of the Ochs, if you perform the Ochs like Von Danzig described it.)
This is quick, hard and unexpected ( if you miss you are in a perfect plug at your left side like Von Danzig described it) and this is like the book toled us.

The big problem with the Egenolph book is that in some techniques it gave only hints how to do it but not the whole thing.

For example in the half sword section there are some very nice techniques but they do not work untill you grip in the middle of your blade with your right hand and not like normally with your left hand. But this xxxxxxx (I censored this myself) book did not tell you. I had a lot of sleepless nights because of that.

So the schielhau is perhaps the right thing here for the last cut.

Hans

[Mike Cartier]

Interesting Hans
I will play with that for a day or 2 and see how it feels.
Thanks for the info nad making me think.

[Mike Cartier]

i have pretty much dropped messing with this and am now focused more on the meyer longsword book.
just a couple of things i have noticed so far .

In the Egenolph book the technique known as "Fehler"
Is known in the Meyer longsword book as "Felen" missing.

Also the Kron technique in the Egenolph book is very close to the Bounce strike in the Meyer book