Weird stance in Codex Wallerstein...

[Mike_McGurk]

What is the guy on the right doing in this plate (I think it's number 79 recto) from the Codex Wallerstein?

The reason I ask is purely out of curiousity, as I am trying to learn as many techniques as I can and this one has me stumped.

[Dylan palmer]

i have no clue about the stance but i would suggest that insted of learing techniques. you should learn the principals of a fight and use the approprite master cut varaiton to attack and counter.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I had not thought about that one before.

I think the man tucks his sword in order to wrap and grapple the foe with his other (right) arm as his foe strikes.

Trying to unwrap the arms with the shown hand positions leads to a weak and awkward grip of the hilt, so I think even more likely that it is preparatory to grappling.

[Derek Gulas]

This is something that has confused me too, but...

What about this? http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/91.jpg

That kinda looks similar, but the hand position is different. The Wallerstein stance almose looks to me like the guard that is used by some of the other groups that do the German staff-fighthing, where they switch grips.

Other than that, I'm at a loss.

[Shane Smith]

Fiore does a similar thing with his point down. In his sword section, he uses this position to strike up and deflect a blow and achieve a bind. I'm not sure that's what happening in CW, but it is at least worth looking into maybe. If there were only significant text in those plates, I'd be so much happier about that,or any other, possible interpretation.

[Randall Pleasant]

I am with Shane on this one. Trying the same actions that Fiore describes from the position shown in the Code Wallerstein I found that that I can easily unwrap my sword. As I strike my left hand on the pomel torqes of the hilt, causing the blade to come around nicely. After the torqe you (MUST) release the pomel, which leaves your hand in a good position to grapple as you bind the adversary's blade. I think the point of using this position is to bait the adversary by hiding your sword and presenting both of your upper openings. Of course, as Shane pointed out, without any text this is just guess work. I am going to have to try this at practice tomorrow.

[Mike_McGurk]

"I am going to have to try this at practice tomorrow."

If you have a chance, can you fill me in on how it went?

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike

I did played with this position some at practice. It actually works quite well. However, I feel that this was someone's "trick techinque" to be used against an unskilled swordsman. I don't think a more skilled swordsman will fall for such a trick.

Again, without any text I am just guessing about how one is to strike from this position. On the other hand, these is hardly another way to stike from that poistion.

[Mike_McGurk]

So its purpose, tactically anyways, is very similar to using langenort against a buffel who's in Vom Tag in hopes that he'll try to beat away the point and thus be hit with his own momentum as you snap it around, however in this case you're drawing out a attack so that you can wrestle at the sword.
By the way, in the fiori image, are the three dudes clustered together examples of what you should use the technique against?

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike

The purpose of the position appears to be to bait the adversary by hiding the sword and leaving all four openings wide open. As I said in my earlier post, leaving all opening wide open is not something I would do against a skill swordsmen, they will not fall for a trick and will attack one of the openings in a manner that will be very difficult to defend from that position. Bottom line, put more time into learning the master cuts.

The three men clustered in the Fiore image have been "stacked" by the other man so that he can fight them one at a time. Basically he is trying to prevent them from flanking him.

[philippewillaume]

I call those types of guard the one hit wonder/baiting guard. Basically it is designed to gain the outside of the person attacking, you can use them with the pieces of the streichen.

Be the outside I men that when you strike starting from the VT you will end up with the right foot forward and those guard makes it easy for you to escape on you left (the right of your opponent) and counter attack or use a piece from the streichen.

phil

[Jared L. Cass]

I'd have to also say that it looks like something in preperation for a grapple.

The other thing it looks a heck of a lot like (other than the left hand gripping the pommel) is what we see alot of when working sword and buckler. The sword is often tucked under like that.

Could be a combination of the two. The left hand may leave the pommel to redirect/stiffel the incoming attack (near the hand of course <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) like one would do if one had a buckler, and then strike with the sword. Just a thought.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Randall Pleasant]

Jared wrote:
The other thing it looks a heck of a lot like (other than the left hand gripping the pommel) is what we see alot of when working sword and buckler

Yes, a displacement cut from the position seen in the Codex would work just like Fiore's single-hand sword technique, which is itself similar to the Under-Arm guard of I.33. Instead of using a buckler to bind the adversary's sword arm uses the left hand to grapple the adversary's sword arm.