Das Redel

[Jake_Norwood]

Ringeck Writes:
"When you close with him, then stretch the arms and hold the thumb avove on the sword and move the point like a wheel before you from below to your left side. And go in such a way toward him. From this you can change through or bind on either side, and if you bind up, you can do whatever techniques seem best to you, as before."
[49r-52v; Tobler p.174]

I've seen a few interpretations of this technique, and I'm struggling to find one to my satisfaction. Tobler depicts is very much according to his translation, as essentially a mittelhau from right wechsel/neben to left wechsel/neben, with the thumb atop the blade.

I have seen an interpretation over the head (which doesn't even begin to fit any element of this translation), and I've seen one that looks essentially like a krumphau.

Tobler's works best both in practice and in relation to the translation above, but deep down inside I feel like there's more.

Thus a few questions:

-What are other viable translations and interpretations of this maneuver? Hows does Lindholm deal with it, for example?

-What is the collective experience with it in practice here?

-Is there some little detail that could make an existing interpretation stand out or work better. I know that the meisterhauen got a lot easier when I began modifying my grip, and winding became more natural when I began cutting into the lower hangers. Stuff like that...

I have some more thoughts that I wish to share on this of my own, but I want to "wait and see" a little bit first.

Jake

[Randall Pleasant]

Jake

This is a very good topic. I think many of us share your feelings about interpretations of this technique.

Jake wrote:-What are other viable translations and interpretations of this maneuver? Hows does Lindholm deal with it, for example?

Lindholm's translation is:
"When you fence with someone, extend your arm, hold your thumb on top of the sword, and move the point of the sword like a wheel from below on your left side in front of you. In this manner approach him. From this you can change through or bind on both sides, and when you have made the bind, you can try all techniques that seem good to you just as before." (Lindholm, p. 198)

The primary difference between the two translations appear to be where Tobler says "move the point like a wheel before you from below <u>to</u> your left side" where as Lindholm say "move the point of the sword like a wheel from below <u>on</u> your left side in front of you".

Lindholm's interpretation is that the sword is held in a Pflug like position and the tip is rotated in a circle in front of the adversary. When the adversary tries to bind your sword from either side you perform a durchwechseln or other technique.

Like you, I will wait and see without offering any opinion.

[David Kite]

To further elaborate Lindholm's translation, here is some from his interpretation at the beginning of the chapter:

"The Redel (Wheel) is a way of approaching your opponent. [It]. . .makes it more difficult for your opponent to ascertain where you are going to strike or thrust.

He goes on to say that it is possible it could be a strike from a nebenhut, but he isn't too convinced of that idea.

So, instead of being seen as an actual specific technique, Lindholm's translation seems to use it as sort of a feinting maneuver without any commitment to a strike. At least, that's how I've always thought of it and have tried to use it.

As far as being "on" the left or "to" the left, it's been easier for me to use the redel "on" one side or another, and move back and forth between right and left.

David Kite

[Casper Bradak]

I'm having a hard time deciding which way to go with this as well. I've used Toblers interpretation to good effect in sparring (whod've thunk it) but it seems like an intentionally telegraphing move in order to achieve a bind.
The Lindholm interpretation seems to me like there must be something more to it, but it's effective as well. A disengage under to thrust to the opening on the other side of his weapon. Isn't there another specific term for that?

[Jake_Norwood]

A disengage under to thrust to the opening on the other side of his weapon. Isn't there another specific term for that?

That's Durchwechseln.

I find that the primary advantage to Tobler's in sparring, etc., is that it leads into good binds and that following up with a zwerch to the same side that you attacked from works quite well. I've also used this from the other side with even better effect...which is actually part of why I'm suspicious.

I'll have to play with Lindholm's a bit--I know and use a technique that isn't too different from that.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

I see, I usually use the term durchfuhren for that, so I forget.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hah. Funny thing. This is a post by Christian Tobler copied from SFI. I'm posting here without his permission, which I hope he'll forgive me for.

Christrian wrote:

Well, actually, I'm afraid that's one part of the book that *I* don't agree with anymore, and one of the few places of variance where I now agree with Mr. Lindholm's interpretation.

What changed my mind though is a technique from the Dobringer manuscript called the Pfobenzagel (The Peacock's Tail), which talks about moving the point "around his sword before the eyes like a wheel or compass." Re-reading Ringeck, and comparing it to this technique makes me pretty sure that they're one and the same.

Here's the Ringeck passage, along with a fairly literal translation:

"Das haist das redel

Item, wann du mitt ainem vechtest, so streck din arm lanck von dir - vnnd daß din dawm oben blyb vff dem schwert - vnd wend das schwert vor dir mitt dem ort vmb glych als ain rad von vnden vff dien lincken sytten behentlich; vnd gang domitt zu° dem mann. Vnd daruß so magstu durchwechslen vff welche sytten du wilt oder anbinden. Vnnd wenn du angebunden haust, so magstu tryben, waß stuck du wilt - daß dich am besten tunckt - alß vor."

"This is called the Wheel

Item, when you fight with one, then extend your arms long from you and in such a way that your thumb remain above the sword, and turn your sword before you with the point around directly like a wheel from below to your left side nimbly and walk thereby to your opponent. And from this you can change through to whichever site you wish or bind. And when have bound, then you can use whatever technique you wish - whichever you think is best - as before."

So, what I'm pretty sure we're seeing is actually a series of circular motion change throughs designed to fool with the opponent's head.

While I liked the rather forceful earlier interpretation, I like the subtlety and tactical sense of the revised one even better.

Incidentally, this may be the biggest interpretation change I've had yet since the book came out (although the re-interpreted Third Wrestling of the Drei Ringen is a close second).

Cheers,

CHT

PS. This correspondence between Pfobenzagel and Redel was actually realized by David Rath years ago, but I had stupidly forgotten it when I was interpreting Ringeck.


__________________
Christian Henry Tobler
Selohaar Fechtschule
Author, "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship"
SSI Advisor

Interesting indeed! That is an interpretation that I hadn't really thought of. At least, it didn't seem to me that Lindholm was talking about pfoberzagel in his translation, but I have to admit that this is the best and most reasonable interpretation that I've seen.

Jake