Ringeck's "Fighting with the Spear"

[Guest]

In the translation of Ringeck's fechtbuch on the ARMA website, I came across a passage that raised a question to me:

"The First Basic Position

If you are both dismounted from your horses, then stand with the left foot forward and hold the spear ready. And approach him in such a way that your left foot always remains forward. And wait so that you can throw before him. And follow the shot immediately with the sword, then he cannot aim a safe throw against you. And grasp to the sword."

When Ringeck says "And grasp to the sword." it seems to me that, since one has already drawn one's sword and closed, he needn't say to grasp to the sword-thus it comes across as having some other meaning. The first thing that comes to mind would be to grasp the hilt of one's opponent's sword to prevent him from drawing it, but then, to my mind, you'd be too close to bother with drawing your own sword; you'd be better off drawing a dagger.

Any opinions from someone not so horribly inexperienced with WMA (and armed combat in general) than myself? <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Personally I think he is talking about his own sword, getting into a half sword position. A little redundant, but that's what I think.
The opponents sword is probably already drawn, he probably didn't even bother wearing a sheath. If you check out the harness fencing plates in Talhoffer just such an encounter is illustrated, also in a few other manuals.

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply!

That makes a good deal more sense than what I was thinking, moreso now that it sparks memory of all the comments of half-swording against the spear.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi All,

I have been thinking recently that playing at the spear might be the best binding and winding practice you can do. You pretty much have to make alot of actions "on the blade" (ok, shaft) which may lead to better winding reflexes when playing at sword.
What do you think?
Cheers,
Stu.

[philippewillaume]

here is the original text
Der text von zwaien stend.
Sper vnd ort den vorsticht Stich on forcht, springe, winde, setz recht an.Wert er, zucke: daß gesigt im an.
Glosa.
Daß ist der erst stand mitt dem sper: (91 r)Wann ir bayde von den rossen abgetretten sind, so stand mitt dem lincken fuß vor vnd halt din sper zu dem schuß. Vnd tritt also zu im, daß allweg din lincker fuß vor blyb Vnd wart das du ee schusst den er. Vnd folg bald dem schuss nach zu im mitt dem schwert; so kan er kainen gewissen schuß vff dich haben. Vnd gryff zu dem Schwert.

The text from the two stances
(i skipped teh lichtananuer bit)
Glosa
That is is the first stance with the spear, when you are both (as in each of you two) dimounted. So stand with the left foot forwardand hold your spear for the shoot. And walk to him like so, that your left foot stays forward. And wait that you shoot before ge does, and follow just after the shot towards him with the sword. So he can have no obvious shoot, and grab at/ engage by the sword
From what I can tell Grab is either begriffen or grief +accusative; fight or engage/attack is more angriffen but can be grief intransitive as well)
Personally, I think the meaning is and engage by the sword.


stu:
Yes I do agree with you the spear makes things easier for fullen, in general

I think that there is reduced number of option so it is easier to keep the technique in front and the action of the opponent are much more definite since the lever is bigger.

[Shane Smith]

I agree with Casper.I'm inclined to believe that the two men in Ringeck are playing this game

Note the one spear is no longer in play but the spearless man has gone to halfsword while his opponent retains both weapons still(I guess his initial throw missed). <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Sorry the image is so large <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" />