counters with the meisterhau?

[Ryan Ricks]

(A)lice attacks (B)ob with an oberhau, Bob counters with either a zornhau or krumphau forcefully so that Alice's blade is driven into the ground. in the split second before Bob counters with some kind of false edge unterhau, what is it possible for Alice to do?

A. nothing, she's toast
B. successfully void
C. successfully close in to grapple.

perhaps some of you who've tried this in full contact sparring will know

[Jake_Norwood]

All three options are possible, and it largely depends on Alice, with a little bit on Bob. If Bob isn't paying attention, he'll lose his advantage very quickly, as often happens in sparring. If Alice is on top of things moreso than Bob, she can void out or close and grapple rather easily, I'd wager. If she's a bit slower or not got her wits about her (and bob does), she's toast.

Jake

[Ryan Ricks]

thanks jake, this french guy asked me today. he was curious about what we do, and i was giving him a short overview. hugh, the guy i train with in north virginia and i also have wondered

ryan

[philippewillaume]

According to uncle ringeck (well my interpretation anyway)

if she did not "void" she should be dead or handless

if she voided
she can do any of the counter to the krump.

Coming to grapple should not be an option as bob should not have lost control of the center line.
It is my understanding that in the case you describe, we are in this situation:
Ain andern bruch uber den krumphaw.
Mörck, wenn du im von diner rechten sytten oben ein hawest, hawt er denn och von siner rechten sytten mit gekreutzten armen krump (27 r )vff dein schwert vnd drückt dir das da mit vnder sich gen der erden so wind gen deiner rechten syten; vnd far mit den armen wol vff vber dein haupt. Vnd setue jm dein ort oben an die brust.
Glosa.
Versetzt er dir das, so plyb also sten, mit dem gehultz vor dem haupt, vnd arbait behendtlich mit dem ort von ainer bloss zu° der anderen: das hayset der edel krig. Da mit verwirstü jn so gar das er nit waysst, wo er vor bliben sol fur war.

Another break over the krump
Marck, when you strike someone from your right side above/at the top/ at the head, strike he then from his right side as well a krump with the crossed hands on/at/of your sword and then presses you under him towards the earth, so wind towards (go to) your right side. And drive with the arms well above/across your head. And place him the point above at the chest
Should he displace that, so stay /stand still with the hilt in front of the head and work with the point from one opening to the other: This is called the noble war. With that you will confuse him so that he will hardly (nitt=net) know where he is to truly stay.


which in my opinion is not what should happen with a krump.

Aber ain stuck vß dem krumphaw.
Krump wer wol setzet mitt schrytten, er vil hew letzet
Daß ist, wie du mitt dem krump haw die obern häw absetzen solt. Daß stuck tryb also: wann er dir von siner rechten sytten oben ein hawet zu° der blosß, so schryt mitt dem rechten fu°ß vff syn lincke sytten über sin schwert mit dem ort (25 v )vff die erden jn die schranckhüte. Das tryb zu° bayden sytten. Och magstu jn vß dem absetzen vff das haupt schlachen.

Another piece of the krump
Krump he who well set aside as he step, He will strike last
That is when you are to set aside (abzetzen) a strike at the top/at the head with the krump. The piece is done like so : when he strikes at the top/head at the opening, so step with the right foot of his left side, with the point at/on/of/to the ground in shcankhut over his sword. That works on either sides and you may strike him to the head from the absetzen.


what do you think ?

[Ryan Ricks]

i can get about an 80% understanding of the german.

it seems odd to me that if someone has forcefully driven your blade to the ground that you'd be able to wind or something in the process. but not like i know what's going on, really.

ryan

[James_Knowles]

wind towards (go to) your right side. And drive with the arms well above/across your head.

We've practiced this one, and seems to work well and fluidly. The way we interpreted it is as the sword is driven down to lift the hilt to ochs and thrust. (Something like that.)

I've also played with allowing the point to go through schrankhut around the back and ending with an ochs-isch false edge plunging cut to the head (while stepping aside), but this like everything else is situational.

For me it's helpful to simply explore possibilities. With this stuff it's counters to counters to counters to counters... all situational.

[James_Knowles]

odd ... that if someone has forcefully driven your blade to the ground that you'd be able to wind

This is where practice partners and blunt steel is invaluable.

We thought it wierd using wasters, but could grasp the concept... then tried steel blunts. I'm still stunned at how "slippery" steel is. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> (My own blunts are on order.) [insert impatient toe-tapping]

You have to remember that it's motion, not static. The sword being knocked "to the ground" has momentum unless it was actually knocked into the ground.

[Casper Bradak]

Try this one I came up with.
If he strikes your blade to the ground as stated and then intends to follow with an unterhau, use a reverse zornhau thingy.
Don't lose contact with his blade as he rises, but forcefully set it by upwards with your true edge, cutting to his upper openings, or follow it back down with a strong slicing duplieren.

[Ryan Ricks]

now THAT i can do!

hopefully when i go down to VAB on the 4th i'll learn the last two meisterhau

[philippewillaume]

Hello Ryan
Just to echo what james says, It is a felling thing
You really have two main options. (Which are the one described by Ringeck, astounding isn&amp;#8217;t it)

Either he sends your more to the side: you basically change through (either only with the tip or completely depending where his sword tips ends up

Or he sends you more downward. Then you cannot change through any more because, if he knows the teachings, as Sigmund would say, he can counter wind (like in the second winden) you from the outside and protect himself from you blade whilst getting a plethora of target from you arms to your face passing by your belly
So provided that you both strike from your respective right, just lift the hilt back with crossed hands as you step forward with the left foot. That will produce exactly the same result but for us.
If you are a tad too late and he already starts his strike to your head you may end up with something that look more like an aussernemhen instead of sliding of his blade but the result is the same.

The winding to the right may no be easy for you because it is just not there, if he send you more to right than downward for example.

Cheers Philippe, do I make more sense ?

[Ryan Ricks]

somewhat, not having someone to practice with at the moment makes it difficult to visualize. i think this is something i'll have to see in order to understand.

[Andrey Lileyev]

IMHO, there is one most simple thing to manage situation where your opponent confuses you with his tactical advantage such as driving your sword down or aside. It is the distance. (A)lice can either break the distance by some quick steps back or shorten it steping forward and depriving (B)ob of opportunity to make forcefull counterattack (if you mean fighting with heavy longswords which need some area for good hit).

As all people said before any action's success depends on A. There is no panacea in the real fight. These methods that I have mentioned also have demerits. In first case A must be much faster than B. In second case B must not be mutch stronger then A or else B can greap A.