What about mutual hits?

[James_Knowles]

I think that one must approach the whole question of how to "count" a double kill with care, because it's easy to slip into the idea of tabulating "wins" and "losses" in a sports mentality.


We have to remember that we're not training for sporting competition, which normally introduces a non-martial focus, and as a result distorts the training goals. Training to win under sport-like rules injurs the effort to reconstruct a dead a war art.

Going several rounds to determine the "better" sportsman does not demonstrate who is the more skilled martial artist. EMA suffers from this terribly. There are countless stories of black belts getting creamed or killed by street punks. I love JC's point about whether one would rather have all the local black belts on one's side in a fight, or the local hockey team. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

we don't use padded swords at all

How do you do full-contact sparring without severe injury? Especially with steel blunts?

Just curious.

[Andrey Lileyev]

How do you do full-contact sparring without severe injury? Especially with steel blunts?

First of all we allways use good armor for steel tournaying. Nobody will let you come into the fence unless yuor body is completely protected with steel armor or chainmail with metall thickness about 1.5 - 2 millimeters (for helmets 2 mm is necessery and it must not be open helmet) with well padded collet beneath. In addition your feet and hands (and palms) must be protected too.

In second only expereanced fighters can tournay with steel weapons (predominantly we use sword and sheald for it). Beginners and those who are under 18 fight with woodden weapons. At the fact we quolify the fighter as able to tournay with steel after 2 or 3 years of training.

In third our tournament blunts are not thinned to the edges or thinned just a little bit. So cuting edge is 2-3 mm thick and is rounded for less traumatic hits.

As experience shows when treated such a way historical fencing is not more traumatic than sportive competitions in other martial arts. But much more traumatic than chess of course <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

And certainly an experienced fighter understands that to kill the opponent is not his real goal. So if I see that my blow can seriously injure my opponent I tend to soften it or hold it in at all.

As for serios we really can't avoid traumas fighting with steel but we do anything to avoid serios ijuries. What for numerous bruises they are ethernal life's companions for historical fencer. And after the trainings (predominantly we train with not padded woodden swords) it is ordinary to stand before mirror, take off the shirt and count how many times you could be killed.

Of cource we can't wear armor all times. But then we fence with woodden swords (or standard sportive blades) and if someone's head or fingers are not protectet they become unhitable zone.

[DavidEvans]

I'm sorry but there doesn't apear to be anything on the web. I'm not surprised, the handwriting ranges from very clear. modern, to medieval in style and defies scanning. Transcription is slow to painfully slow. I'll look round and see if we can find something!

[JeffGentry]

as far as sparring with "steel blunt's" is concerned you need to be very skilled, we just did the NTP 1.0 in columbus and we did some test cutting we used a "blunt" it was simply an unsharpened sword from the manufacturer, It sliced through a watermelon like it was not even there, There is a whole other skill level involved with sparring with "blunt's".

Hopefuly one day i and other's will have the confidence in my ability to do a little combat with blunt's.

John can you share a story about your experience with steel?

[James_Knowles]

to medieval in style and defies scanning.

One thing that I've done in the past with difficult, messy text is scan at a fairly high resolution, then use an imaging tool like the GIMP/Photoshop/whatever to enhance the picture and bring out the text. I frequently end up with hypersaturated colours but more legible text.

This typically works best with low contrast text, where once enhanced the text is pretty straight forward, but the raw image is really hard to make anything out.

Of course, there's the really gross stuff that will never be deciphered because it's just so messed up, e.g. smeared, missing, or [argh!] overwritten by some later person.

This of course only works with images that have enough visible light information for this to work. Sometimes it'll really surprise you how much is there. Other times it's just flat disappointing.

If you can get ahold of non-visible light sources, you can combine the two to really pull out a lot of text. (The most amazing one in my book was the Pompeii papyri which appear to the naked eye as scorched black material, but when enhanced [IIRC] with multiple spectra was pretty clear text.)

But with any of this stuff... YMMV. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[DavidEvans]

For the sorts of material I'm working with that simply doesn't work. The PRO (Public Record Office) have looked at scanning documents but gave up because the cost of developing a package that was worth the effort for everything pre 1650-ish just wasn't affordable. We're talking hand written documents of varying sizes, writing, ink, parchment or rarely paper, sometime with sand still sticking to it where it has been used for blotting, and colour of ink and paper. Image scanning pale brown parchment with brown faded ink. Cheap black ink goes brown. It's far better to still consult the orginal source.

[Jaron Bernstein]

On the mutual hits question. First, I agree that it is undesirable and doesn't count as a "draw". With sharps, it would be mutual loss. At practice yesterday we several mutual hits. Typically, they involved one of us getting a solid hit at one of the 4 openings at the same time (or right after) the other guy got a solid hit at the opposite opening. It seemed to me that in free sparring if one of us threw a committed shot towards one opening, it left you open for your partner to hit you where you were no longer guarding. Granted, he would also get hit by not defending against your blow, but it seems like a rather pyrric victory when your zornhau to his head lands about 1/10th of a second before his mittelhau to your ribs.

How do you avoid the problem of throwing a good shot while NOT leaving yourself open?

<img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jaron

remember our little discussion on the four opening's and and the four Primary gaurd's and how each gaurd protect's certain opening's and how the gaurd your in kind of determine's what attack's you can quickly make, and if you know this then you can set yourself in the right gaurd to attack/defend.


Here is what Meyer say's "This is the underlying reason for the development of the Stances and is why you stay while in one Guard: to see what the other will take ahead (and then rightly know how to overtake his chosen part) and prevent such just by being certain to see here what his chosen part will be, and such waiting is a great art and experience. "

Remember when i nailed you from the changer and you ask what i did i simply did the above i went to changer planning on coming up and down with my short edge to your head/neck i thought you would strike diagnoly because of your stance and didn't think you had any real knowledge of the changer gaurd that was why i used it hoping i was right it was extremely hard for me to be patient evaluate your gaurd and then wait to see if my evaluation was right i had to move in des , my experience level is low so i have to be patient and wait and learn, that was why i realy tried to slow down and use the gaurd's to set myself to advatage to your gaurd not so much to "protect myself" as to gain the advantage i thought i knew what opening you could/would strike too and i tried to set my gaurd to attack your open "opening".

I realy think the four opening's and knowing them and the gaurd's and strike's and what you can attack from each is important so you can deflect/displace and attack you have to be able to do it very quickly unlike me.

it is a mark of experience that i don't have but am gaining, it is a slow process.

Is just MHO so take it for what it is worth.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hola Jeff <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't actually thinking about your very cool changer that came out of nowwhere (now that is Indes!) since it DIDN'T result in a mutual hit. I was thinking more about all those times of trading a zornhau to the head in exchange for a mittelhou to the body.

1. If the attacker throws the shot, the defender should (IMO at least) do one of a few things; a. void and countercut, b. throw a indes meisterhau counter that both defends and counters in one movement, c. block and follow up with a nach response.

The problem is when as an attacker, what do ye do when the defender does none of the above and just doesn't defend and instead throws a simultaneous shot so they land at about the same time? How, as an attacker, do you address that? Sure you may get the kill, but so does your opponent.

[JeffGentry]

1. If the attacker throws the shot, the defender should (IMO at least) do one of a few things; a. void and countercut, b. throw a indes meisterhau counter that both defends and counters in one movement, c. block and follow up with a nach response.

Here is what Meyer say's "This is the underlying reason for the development of the Stances and is why you stay while in one Guard: to see what the other will take ahead (and then rightly know how to overtake his chosen part) and prevent such just by being certain to see here what his chosen part will be, and such waiting is a great art and experience. "

IMHO i think some of this just come's from experience you had a number of shot's land on me that i would say were kill shot's that i didn't expect until it was to late because i didn't evaluate the gaurd you were in right and i moved from the wrong one and left myself open or i didn't step offline and gave you a clear shot, the more we spar full contact the better we become at seeing thing's quickly and our judgement will improve and mutual kill's will go down in just the few month's we have been practicing together Jaron i have seen alot of improvement in your skill's IMHO you are getting better, oh and i liked the level of aggresion the other day too, that realy surprised me totaly caught me off gaurd i didn't not expect alot of those three and four strike attack's. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[James_Knowles]

Here is what Meyer say's "...and is why you stay while in one Guard: "

I may be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't Ringeck talk about not staying in one guard?

[JeffGentry]

but doesn't Ringeck talk about not staying in one guard? / This is the underlying reason for the development of the Stances and is why you stay while in one Guard

I think we have to remember that we have diffrent distance's in the fight, we have the long, and the middle, when we are in the long distance we can change from one gaurd to another and stay in it a little longer than is normaly safe, we have to be careful though distance can change quickly but as we gain experience we will move constantly through our gaurd's not "staying" in one for more than a split second.


Try moving from r. ochs to l. ochs and move through pflug and just pause for a split second to me that is "staying awhile in one gaurd".

I don't think Meyer actualy mean's to stand in one gaurd, this is a very dynamic art and we should alway's be moving from gaurd to gaurd, with enough experience it is MHO that we will be able move through our gaurd's and stance's and see the oppertunity that we are given in the split second that it occure's.

this is just MHO take it for what it is worth.

[Shane Smith]

Good point. If you stay in a static guard for too long with a non-focused mind,you will be meister-hau'd(is that a word <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) to death in short order by a Swordsman skilled in the German tradition.