What kind of Martial Arts?

[philippewillaume]

Well it really depends
Aikido can be as martial as you want it to be and that is true for all arts. (after all, O sensei was a teacher at the navy academy for hand to hand and bayonette).

It is not the art that is not martial it can only be the practitioner.

[David Mastro]

Mr Clements,

I dismiss this straw man argument. It's been discussed and soundly answered many times already (by several articles on this very website, in fact).

With all due respect, I fail to see what's so "strawman" about my point, but if you could list the specific article(s) that address this issue (so as to avoid wasting anyone's time), I would like to check them out.

The reality is, what we are doing is arguably more accurate than what modern Asian stylists typically do in their extant because we follow not from hundreds of years of civilianization and sportification and alteration as they do, but from direct period instructional manuals by the very men who fought and taught and killed -extinct or not the sources material are undiluted and uncontaminated by modernism and cross-training.

What about the Asian styles which have retained their combative application, like the Filipino eskrima methods that were still employed as swordfighting styles right thru WWII? The material that folks like the late GM Leo Giron learned from Flaviano Vergara and others is surely more "undiluted" than the vast majority of everything else around today, as those folks fought in earnest with sharp swords.

The fact is, you CAN learn from a book because our very historical masters tell us so. They say you can do it and they themselves did it historically.

It's always been my understanding that the manuals were meant for people who grew up in the context of the martial culture of their time, no? We're talking about people who would have had first-hand experience with the combative disciplines of their era. There's a big difference between that, and modern folks reconstructing a long-dead system.

This is itself a very part of our distinct Western martial heritage. I will accept their word on this over any Asian master or stylist who, having never studied our arts a bit, tells us that we can't. The proof I suspect can be demonstrated any time any of them want to come cross weapons with me or any of our senior practitioners. The door is always open.

Mr Clements, I'm not questioning your fighting competence. That is not the issue here. This issue has more to do with reconstructing a dead art, and reconstructing it accurately. WMA researchers come from a multitude of combative backgrounds, so don't you see where AMA practitioners might be suspicious of certain things?

Respectfully,

David

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I always wonder why do Asian Martial Artists become suspicious of anything? Why are Western martial artists' interested in what Asain martial artists' have to say about authenticity?

It is important to have a heathy respect for both, but I would never dream of going on a Asain martial arts dedicated webpage and posting anything discussing the nature and origins of the art.

Whenever someone does I simply yawn, think to myself-wow, pretty arrogant, and move on. With all the information available, all the work being done to present Western Martial Arts as an effective, legitimate, martial study. It is hard for me to comprehend why so many Asian Martial Artists feel it neccessary to engage in these kinds of debates.

I met a guy in my gym who is practicing ninja-esk arts in a garage with some master "ninja". I was going through some of my guards and tiprogressions, taken out of Meyer, and he has the gall to call into question what I was doing, set aside the fact that I am confident I could whip this guy good in a real fight, but what kind of message does that kind of arrogance send?

I still am left scratching my head from time to time, and I think it has much to do with how new WMA is and really how seperate many of it's leading practicioners seem to be. I really think in about 50 years, people will no longer feel the need to question what we are doing as legitimate, even with all the fantasy role playing stuff out there-Aaron

[David Mastro]

Aaron,

I always wonder why do Asian Martial Artists become suspicious of anything? Why are Western martial artists' interested in what Asain martial artists' have to say about authenticity?

It is important to have a heathy respect for both, but I would never dream of going on a Asain martial arts dedicated webpage and posting anything discussing the nature and origins of the art.

Whenever someone does I simply yawn, think to myself-wow, pretty arrogant, and move on. With all the information available, all the work being done to present Western Martial Arts as an effective, legitimate, martial study. It is hard for me to comprehend why so many Asian Martial Artists feel it neccessary to engage in these kinds of debates.

Why do you assume that I'm an "Asian Martial Artist"?

And I suppose you didn't notice my signature, where I pay tribute to the sober wisdom of my Italian ancestors.

For the record, my original background is in modern French foil fencing. I have also trained in Filipino eskrima (which is an amalgam of Eastern and Western styles), and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (which is also a mixture of arts, with pre-1925 judo/jujutsu as its base, along with elements from Western wrestling). I, too, work on reconstructing historical Western martial arts (European single-handed cut-and-thrust forms, etc). My main area of focus is on 16th century Western European martial arts and military history.

I still am left scratching my head from time to time, and I think it has much to do with how new WMA is and really how seperate many of it's leading practicioners seem to be. I really think in about 50 years, people will no longer feel the need to question what we are doing as legitimate, even with all the fantasy role playing stuff out there-Aaron

My point is that it's a matter of reconstructing dead arts, and despite the wealth of evidence in period treatises and accounts, what we do will still always be a reconstruction, as opposed to a living tradition. Bluntly put, the arts we seek to revive stopped being living traditions as soon as they died. I am concious of the fact that practitioners of arts that are still living traditions (Asian or otherwise) may have doubts about current Western martial disciplines, if only because they are predominantly reconstructions. Don't get me wrong, many of these reconstructions display effectiveness, but you have to consider the fact that modern-day WMA reconstructors come from so many backgrounds--including Asian martial arts. So, I don't think it's surprising that there are folks who have reservations about what is being done today in the HEMA/WMA community on some level. This all goes back to Gary's original post--about when folks look "puzzled" when he states that he practices "Western Martial Arts". Saying something along those lines (i.e., training in "Western Martial Arts") almost infers a living tradition, and I think that's where a lot of the "puzzled" reactions come from.

Peace,

David

[brian phillips]

David,
If you have a fighter, and they takes their previous
background to a new body of material (say the techniques
in a manual) and begins to "make it work" then it's
alive.He/she brings "life" to the material.

All this talk of "resurrected" means very little by the only
standard that matters (both back in the day and in the
present).

That standard is "did you get hit? Did you hit them?.. Well
there you go!".

It's really that simple. Got doubt? Fight!

I should probably add in that I'm a FMA guy, and
I roll (badly) also.. (and get whacked on by the
local Arma rep!)

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

This has been a very interesting thread, and I've been following it quite closely. However, it is something that's been discussed a lot in this forum. I especially found your questions to be quite well-put, Mr. Mastro.

I understand the concern with age and continuity, as it's my concern too. But why is age used as the sole basis for legitimacy, especially by EMA? Aikido is fairly recent, especially in martial arts terms, but it's considered legitimate by most. I also suspect that arnis and eskrima are far more recent than claimed. I've read LOTS of primary documents on combat in my country, but very few of them describe anything resembling arnis or eskrima in the pre-Hispanic or Spanish conquest period. Therefore, I also have to ask, how far back does continuity have to stretch for it to be legitimate?

I think that this bafflement really has more to do with cultural politics. As a non-Westerner and non-white (and a history scholar), I am aware of the sentiment behind this. The Chinese and the Japanese, because of the peculiarities of their culture, put extra emphasis on age and living tradition. This is obviously not a bad thing, as both cultures do have very long and very distinguished histories which you'd have to be jingoistic to deny. However, it is can sometimes be used to make them feel better about themselves by saying that the West is just young and copied them, etc... The usual. Call it Occidentalism, a direct counterpart of Orientalism (which holds the negative view towards Eastern 'age' i.e. it's weighted down by a lot of obsolete traditions and is 'unchanging').

However, I suspect that this still does not address your main question with regards to what exactly WMA people are praciticing as a martial art.

I think the site has made that pretty clear: it's a form of martial arts inspired by and adhering as close as possible to the original. It uses recreation techniques that are scientific, especially within the Western cultural context. But, and this is something Mr. Clements and this site say repeatedly, it isn't exactly what the Europeans from the 16th century practiced. It is acknowledged to be a reconstruction, and this site has gone out of its way to refute (and ridicule, I notice) claims by some people that they are the lineal descendants of historical WMA. Again, read Mr. Clements article on continuity. You two probably agree with each other more than you think.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Sorry David, I really was not aiming my reply at you per se... I do not think I referred to you at all in it, but more the subject manner. I am sure based on your comments about your courses of study that you are very sincere in your arts. I was speaking more generalized, but your reaction kind of sums up what I am talking about--and by the way, I am still not so convinced that Western Martial Arts died out at all, changed morphed, evolved-any way you "slice it"-ha ha-Westerners have been fighting and killing each other since the dawn of time.

To say that wesern martial arts is dead has always been a funny statement. I have often wondered as I was training in the firing range or prepping for another high-risk drug warrant-will someday people, who can now use mind powers to stop others from doing harm, go and train with handguns and see that as a dead art? If you have ever witnessed a true dead eye in action it is really something to behold, moving running, crouching, sitting they are equally proficent and acurate from all of these actions. Is this a martial art? Does this take skill, concentration, strength and fortitude of character-?

I guess from what I have seen so far of WMA, sometimes the negative is picked up and turned into somekind of legitimicy argument-who cares man, so what if the practice of using swords to kill was changed into the lance, into the bow, into this or that-the point is the western culture has always had a rich martial heritage, complete with training systems, masters and everything you might ascribe to more asain stlyes. I think if mayve we make a whole bunch of cheesy movies about it-with greased up actors, then people will give it some creedance you know- ahhhhh-enough said about this-I am getting all worked up just typing this- sorry if I rambled on-but let's move on

[Craig Peters]

David,

See the article on History and Heritage: http://www.thearma.org/essays/historyandheritage.html

[David Mastro]

J.,

Again, read Mr. Clements article on continuity. You two probably agree with each other more than you think.

I definitely agree with Mr Clements on a great number of things. John Clements is certainly a modern WMA/HEMA pioneer, and his work speaks for itself. In fact, along with a couple of other writer/researcher/practitioners, Clements was among the first whom I saw who took the research of the Western disciplines really seriously (as opposed to previous groups, that were/are bogged down in bogus sparring rules and superfluous role-playing/fantasy material).

I will address everyone's pertinent points as soon as possible.

Peace,

David

P.S. Craig, thanks for the link.

[Shane Smith]

I met a guy in my gym who is practicing ninja-esk arts in a garage with some master "ninja". I was going through some of my guards and tiprogressions, taken out of Meyer, and he has the gall to call into question what I was doing, set aside the fact that I am confident I could whip this guy good in a real fight, but what kind of message does that kind of arrogance send?

I will now point out that there are traditional martial arts of the Ninja known as Ninpo etc. that are as legitimate as any other martial art. There are true Grandmasters and Masters represented therein.Master Hatsumi is the current Grand Master.

Our ARMA Associate and fellow Swordsman Noah Gross from Israel is an avid and able practitioner of this Art if my memory is not completely failing me.

Based on the above,the guy you mentioned may have been a goof...or...he was telling the absolute truth as Master Hayes does teach and promote Ninjutsu in the United States, and certainly, as all of we Dan-holders in various Asian MA's know, any Dan holder is considered a qualified Instructor in the basics of his Art.

No flame intended,just dusting off the truth detector. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Shane no flame recieved, I understand what you are getting at, and I am aware of the fact that there are many forms of legit Martial Arts out there....I guess I failed to convey the approach that this guy used, "goof" I think was the description you used.

The approach was as if I should be ashamed for wasting my time with such nonsense. He was way over the top. Understand that I do not get offended very easily being a Policeman I have had plenty of opportunities to develope a thick outer skin. There have been a few individuals lately who have accomplished this unfortunately.

The other point is that, people who I take as true Martial Artists, have received me very respectfully and I have had many enjoyable conversations with these folks about WMA and AMA and their similarities and diffrences, but sometimes you can just sense that these people ascribing themselves as martial artists in this or that, have no idea what they are talking about or at least fail to comunicate thier ideals. As I said though I would never point out that they were lacking in some way, or that thier art was flawed etc... maybe this area is just full of wannabees or something?

Keep in mind as well that everyday I practice in a gym, which has alot of people moving through on a daily basis. I have a unique relationship with the owner of this gym, and am able to practice dailiy in this enviroment, so I feild alot of questions from folks who see me. This could explain some of these attitudes, the age-old flex and strut gym workout-

Thats my take anyway-didn't mean to offend anyone-Train hard or go home!--- Aaron

[Shawn Cathcart]

My point is that it's a matter of reconstructing dead arts, and despite the wealth of evidence in period treatises and accounts, what we do will still always be a reconstruction, as opposed to a living tradition.

To be completely fair is a living tradition really automatically more valid than a reconstruction? They both have the potential to become modified, miscontrued by both time, the changing environment in which they continue to be taught and by continual appended interpretation.

Now I share your reservations David. While we can always come very very close to approximating the skills of our anscestors we can never equal them exactly in my opinion. Because of one very simple aspect. We never intend to use our skills in life or death, completely earnest combat. Its perhaps a small aspect, but an important one, and one we must always keep in mind. What it robs us of is real combat feedback of how our techniques are actually working. I'd also argue that's the same problem for any martial art, east or west, advocating bladed weapon use in modern times.

Its because of this that we have to be so careful to remember exactly what it is we are doing, and what the limitations of that are. I agree with John that the manuals give us an excellent source by which to learn the techniques as the masters advocated them. So long as we're careful, and ever humble about what we interprete from them.

Its arguable that those studying from a living tradition need, in their own way, to be as critical of the interpretation of their individual arts and their understanding of them, as we must be with ours.

[John_Clements]

I should add that Per Ake Carlsson head of ARMA Sweden is a high ranking former Ninpo practitioner who studied in Japan. He gave it up to pursue European arts under ARMA. We've talked at length about the similarities and differences between the two crafts, such as the lack of serious sparring and available historical sources to openly explore in most all Asian styles compared to European ones---and of course, the deep (but easily understandable) ignorance of the former about the latter.

JC

[John_Clements]

Interesting thoughts, Shawn.

I feel I must express I suspect the true implication of some of these kinds of questions is not so much to discover what degree of historical accuracy and soundness our craft contains or can attain, so much as to deride it by suggesting it's not a “real fighting art”, or even that “under the surface” it really uses Asian traditions. I could be wrong, but this is the impression I find reading the shallowness of some websites discussing the research and practice of historical European martial arts of which they know little about.

JC

[ksiajdn]

True, the lack of actual knowledge of the western martial culture is sometimes even more damaging than the lack of living traditions on specific techniques. As matter of fact, I've been reading a lot about the Roman Empire and it's easy to notice the rich martial culture they had. Quoting Edward Gibbon, ''the romans were so sensible to imperfection of the value when it wasn't achieved through the practice and the dextery that, in their language, the word ''army'' derives from the word used to describe ''practice'' (or ''training'', for that matter). The military training were the most relevant object of their dicipline.''
I've been greatly surprised by people who dismissed western martial culture as ''swinging metal clubs and firing guns''. With such source of historical material avaible, the only thing that these people can use as excuse to say such disrespectful things about the european martial arts is their ignorance.