A question on Silver

[Matt Easton]

No worries mate <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Matt

[Shawn Cathcart]

I did say MOST everyone's opinion <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />. Again, there is of course cases of edge parries used with the ricasso that is made for that purpose, and done for purposes of closing and winding, but I have no doubts, that on the cutting portion of the blade, no edge on edge block should occur, that is obvious. Obviously as a reflex, to save yourself you might do it, and sometimes as a matter of bad form it would happen, but I don't think you trained in such a manner that you would use the cutting portion of the blade, and its edge to block directly on an opposing edge. Do it on any close to accurate replica blade, it ruins the edge. I took the technique in question to be happening with a Silver period cut and thrust sword, and of course it applies to medieval techniques as well. I'll be more careful to narrow down what it is I'm talking about, but since the question was regarding silver, I assumed my answer would be taken to regard silver also. As far as the Medieval techniques relying on semantics, I don't believe it does so much, practice thecuts and guards as they are shown in Ringeck or Talhoffer, or any german style manuals, if you do them at speed, with proper form, you just naturally do not get any edge on edge direct, static parries. The advantage of reading and also practicing what is shown in the manuals, these things become more clear in my opinion.

[Guest]

The technique is used with a Silver style back or basket hilted sword (C&amp;T swords are from later, the first master that I know of who uses anything approaching them is G.A. and it can be argued that the first was Hope (1707)with his shearing sword or spadroon. Silver is still very much a cutting sword that is heavier that the later C&amp;T swords however it can still thrust). However we classify it we are in fact talking about the same weapon.

This is being diverted from my question of how far down towards your leg you go and how this parry is affected by deceptions in your opinion. Also I see a possible vulnerability to offensive grapples, and an invitation to launch an offensive grapple is something I`v never seen in Silver, particularly this type that could turn into an arm bar to the sword arm while the attacker thrusts.

Charles

[Shawn Cathcart]

I assume by deceptions you mean feints, or changes in line of the attack. They are a very tricky thing and hard to take into account. As a rule of thumb, any deflection I think should be done at the last possible moment. If you move to deflect too soon you give away that intention and he can switch targets sooner. If he were to switch high to the other side, the false edge could be used easily for a snapping kind of beat. I also do not like false edge cuts with single sword, except perhaps to the hands or face. But the false edge can be used to some degree in a deflection/beating action with single sword. You could also switch into a form high or medium height hanging guards to quickly cover yourself and either close to grappling, or try to seperate and get some distance. There are lots of things you can potentially do against a feint, but they all hinge on having extremely quick reflexes.

I missed your one post above also, about how far my sword was going back, when I described cutting down to deflect, and then continuing through. Its kind of a 2 part action, but looks like one when done fluidly. You place the cut down towards your leg but forward still, like moving into a left alber guard. If you make contact with the deflection you instantly keep following through with the cut and come around with a quick counter (this is just one possible counter obviously, the quick slash back to the knee is nice if you have enough room to get a solid cut in after the deflection), or if he changes the line or timing of his attack, you can move your sword wherever needed. Heh I hope that's clearer, my left arm for a digital camera, would make these things easier <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />.

[Guest]

>I assume by deceptions you mean feints, or changes in line of the attack.

Partly, but I`ll go into it in a second.

>They are a very tricky thing and hard to take into account. As a rule of thumb, any deflection I think should be done at the last possible moment. If you move to deflect too soon you give away that intention and he can switch targets sooner.

Indeed, this is one of the universal truths of fencing, "leave your defence to the last possible instant and keep the circle of defence as small as the technique requires"

>If he were to switch high to the other side,

you would never bother with this (with few exceptions but they aren't important to the way I`m using deception in my post but they are there) a blow aimed low on the right of the target could only be directed high on the right or be a slow ball. A slow ball is done by cocking the wrist back slightly during the swing so the blade reaches the target later than it would normally, I wont say this is as powerful as a normal cut but I will say its powerful enough to destroy the knee.

>You could also switch into a form high or medium height hanging guards to quickly cover yourself and either close to grappling, or try to seperate and get some distance. There are lots of things you can potentially do against a feint, but they all hinge on having extremely quick reflexes.

and on not overcommitting to a defence thus being unable to redirect the sword to defend a different part of the body. that comes with the small circle of defence.

>I missed your one post above also, about how far my sword was going back, when I described cutting down to deflect, and then continuing through. Its kind of a 2 part action, but looks like one when done fluidly. You place the cut down towards your leg but forward still, like moving into a left alber guard. If you make contact with the deflection you instantly keep following through with the cut and come around with a quick counter (this is just one possible counter obviously, the quick slash back to the knee is nice if you have enough room to get a solid cut in after the deflection), or if he changes the line or timing of his attack, you can move your sword wherever needed.

my concern is that if you are cutting backwards with the blade and I slow ball the attack then in order to defend against it you would have to stop your sword in order to have your sword in the way of my blade, your arm would be close to your body, I could interrupt the blow by pulling my and in bringing my sword into a close second/terse as I pass in with the left foot barring your arm with my right arm to pin it there and then stab you with my sword. If you counter grapple by grabbing my left arm with your left then as I come foreword I just bend my left arm and I can still likely bar your sword arm.

this relies on knowing what an opponent will do in this situation but if you do this once then the attacker will know the next time he goes for a low right target and you start to do this he will be able to do this counter to your counter.

as I see it the more to the right your defence goes as opposed to back the safer you are against this type of counter.

Charles

[Shawn Cathcart]

I think our opinion of how to move down into the guard is the same, the example of a counter I gave is perhaps misleading.

> my concern is that if you are cutting backwards with the blade...

I still cut down to the left to meet the cut, and of course I don't over-extend it. I believe that's what you mean when you say to keep the technique as "right" as possible, not reaching out too far to the left, or over-extending the guard out. The backwards part is also perhaps misleading. What I usually do after a deflection style defense like that is what we term a "twitch". Using the wrist you twitch your blade out and back around the tip of the opponents sword so you can counter cut up to the shoulder or face on the same side. Again this is just one counter among several, and done this way the counter can come with true or false edge. So I'm not so much swinging backwards as twitching around the end of your sword, using as small a movement as possible. I agree that if you over-extend to the left with this technique the closing and trapping of the arm is something that could work, and it also slows down any counter you might try to perform as well.

Now that I get what you mean about the slow-ball type of technique your correct that if my cut was to just go backwards it could slip by. We do these types of techniques or changes of speed as well. As you said they are not powerful, but they do land, and would do damage. You can also just delay the snapping through of your cut, and that way you still slow-ball, while still getting a pretty decent cutting power as well. It just follows that you must always make sure you've achieved your defense before you start any counter, and I think keeping your blade in front of you, and not over-extended to the sides is very important in this.

Heh so to summarize my blathering, I see what it is your saying now and agree <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />