Mittelhau mechanics?

[Bill Welch]

I agree with Jake, Meyer says"the Middle or travering strike can execute most effects that the wraith strike can, the difference is only that while the wraith strike is a forceful high point, the high traverse is brought full on". so while the low mittlehau is sometimes useful the high mittlehau is what was intended because it binds, and can reach your opponents head while offering a defence at the same time.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Jaks,

I think your point is plausible, that the mittelhau may just be zwerchhau. But I would tend to agree with the guys who advocate that there was *the* mittelhau as a distinct thing.

I would point out that the *Codex Speyer* of 1491, page 3r, which seems to be associated with Mertin Siber, speaks of mittelhau, and distinguishes it from oberhau & unterhau.

Good luck,

JH

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Jeff. You're missing my point. "The" mittelhau is a distinct thing--it's the edgewise reverse of the zwerch (itse'f neither an oberhau or unterhau...not really). It is a cut along the horizontal line...but not accross the belly. It's made with the hands in front of the head, like just about every other cut, with it's impact point at langort (like just about every other cut). And it's not a "standard" listed German technique, like the zwerch (it's near-brother) or, say, the zornhau is. AFAIK we've got it in Meyer and Speyer. Currently that makes it as "canon" of a technique as, say, the sturzhau...meaning master-specific and not necessarily endemic to the bulk of the "German Tradition." Does any other manual have it? I don't know, but I'd like to.

Brian- Mair?

Jake

[leam hall]

Jake scribeth: "Instead of cutting straight back with the short edge, twitch around the head, like a helicopter, and deliver a stroke from the left with the short edge. Instead of envisioning that first mittelhau missing and landing in a guard, imagine it hitting, failing to cut his head in half like you want it to, and bringing it around to finish the job on the other side with the other edge. That's how the zwerch (and the mittelhau) work in the manuals."

Ah, so hit the opponent with the first on one side and then bring it around nearly 360 degrees for the other side? I've been exercising with that, it might have some effect. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

As to images of the 8 cut, I picked up my copy of the Codex W and the front cover has a copy of Plate 1. I'm not sure they didn't cover the 8 cut diagrams. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

That diagram in CW isn't 8 cuts, but it is the same idea, yes. I think there's more to it than that, but I'm not sure that we'll ever know what.

Ah, so hit the opponent with the first on one side and then bring it around nearly 360 degrees for the other side? I've been exercising with that, it might have some effect.

Oh, it works, I promise!

Jake

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jake,

Unsure about Mair, will try to take a look later this week, I am in the middle of wrapping up the polearms this weekend. Keep in mind that Mair is HUGE! You have 4 different books, the Augsburg (this appears to be a unique book and different from the other 3) plus 2 volumes in each of the other 3, the Vienna, the Dresden, and the Munich. Plus they cover everything that all the other manuals cover plus some other things that they don't, such as sickle and sythe. Mair is going to be a life time study by itself.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jake,

just a quick update, Mair does use the words "mit haw" in the Schiller section of the text only portion of the langen swert on plate #12. So he does apparently deal with middle strikes, but I still have to find where he describes the specific mechanics of this strike.

More Info later when I find it.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Jake_Norwood]

"mit" also used to mean "with," so theres a few possibilities there. Nonetheless, I can't wait to find out.

Jake

[Brian Hunt]

Hey Jake,

good point, so here is a quick transcription of the verse I was looking at, possible mistakes included, so buyer beware.

Diß der schiller ist ain selßam gut rennfthafft? stuckn wann er pricht mit gewalt ein mithaw unnd mit seich unng geet yu mit verkertem schwert darumb so seinnd vil? maister die von dem haw trit wissen zu sagen unnd auch die hut die da haist der pflug.

let me know what you think.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jake_Norwood]

Just looking at it real quick, it looks like he's reccomending the Schillerhau as a break against a mittelhau, no? If so, that further supports a Mittelhau's trajectory being high, accross the face or collarbone.

Jake

[Brian Hunt]

That is what it appears to me to be, I need to dig deeper into the long sword, I have been primarily engaged with the pole arm sections, and my next section is the sword and buckler. But there are middle strikes in the pole arm sections, I just don't know if they transfer over to longsword.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Jake:

Okay, I understand your point better now.

I found *mitel how* in Wittenwiller (MS CGM 558 from 1462 AD) on page 128r stanza 34, where it is associated with *ober wechsel* and with *zwaiger* (probably aka *zwerch*).

Mittelhau can also be found, apparently, in *Gladiatoria* on page 53v; and in Mair (Vienna), page 30r.

So I guess along with Meyer and Speyer that would make at least five manuals that deal with *mittelhau* in some fashion.

JH

[Brian Hunt]

Cool,

I will double check that plate in Mair and try and post a transcription/translation on his mittelhaw later this week.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Kathryn_Woods]

Hi, Jake,

I'm complete neophyte, here. Like Mike, the cut coming back from the horizontal cut after vom Tag feels awkward. Everything else intuitively makes sense, but that particular cut is the most difficult one in the bunch (so far) and it feels like the weakest. And perhaps that's its purpose. Anyway, though, I'm really interested in what you guys are saying.

I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing what you mean by

> Instead of cutting straight back with the short edge, twitch
> around the head, like a helicopter, and deliver a stroke from
> the left with the short edge.

Probably because I don't know precisely what you mean by "twitch". I'm already there with my sword to the left, short edge pointed back towards the right -- am I twitching around my head, or my opponent's? Could you describe it a bit more ("Swordplay for Dummies")?

Mike writes:

> From vom tag, step forward and do the mittelhau until it is
> about 45 degrees past center. Flip the blade over, step
> forward and swing the long edge again, back in the other
> direction. Carry the motion back through the tail and swing
> up for the diagonal unterhau.

Mike, I can visualize what you're describing completely; somehow it just makes more sense to flip the blade over and slice back with the long edge. But you'd have to flip the blade over again in order to come up in tail guard prepartory for your unterhau, right?

It occurs to me that you have long-edge/short-edge pairs in the 8-cut drill (assuming that I'm doing it correctly), except for the last two (which is why those last two cuts me up, now that I think about it), which are the unterhau/left-to-right zornhau. Flipping the blade over for the horizontal cuts would make it two long/short pairs followed by two long/long pairs. I don't know if the 8-cut drill is trying to balance long cuts and short cuts (or if it's just a showcase of cuts), but I thought I might point that out, for whatever that's worth.

Thanks, everyone, for the thread &amp; your explanations!

-- Kat

[Jeffrey Hull]

Brian,

Please do, that would be cool. I can vouch for the Wittenwiller as I read it myself from the nice Arts d'Armes transcription by Grenier, but the Mair and Gladiatoria references I got second-hand, though from a reputable source - Forgeng's nice glossary for Fechtbuecher via Higgins Armory.

JH