Jake
Glad to be of help. Hopefully Bart or John will correct any mistakes I made. The following are a few comments to continue an enjoyable discussion.
Jake: The key principle that seems to reoccur here is that this sort of a bind doesn't take place indes when two fighters are trying to kill each other.
Ran: The counter Zornhau does take place indes of the adversary's Zornhau, but the bind is the point in which you regain the Before, leaving the adversary in the After.
Jake: Now, that seems counter to the images...
Ran: Image 1 from Goliath and the picture in CW shows the point at which you would be thrusting from the bind.
Jake: I maintain that a versetsen with some force will get you farther in life than such a bind,
Ran: I agree. I don't like to bind. If I can knock the adversary's sword far enough off line then I am completely free to counter strike. Is this not a case where a versetsen (displacement) leads to a bind?
Jake: If I am in the after, and my edge comes into contact with his flat, and I haven't used enough energy to re-direct his blade, then what really happens? Experience with wood and steel seems to imply that we end up in a bind--but not the one pictured in plates 5 and 6 of CW.
Ran: Might be due to the amount of force in each Zornhau, height differences, etc. The main thing is does the counter stop the adversary's Zornhau leaving you in the Before and in a good position to counter cut/thrust/slice?
Jake: ...that your Zornhau cannot be aimed at the adversary...seems counter to what the masters generally teach--that every strike aims to strike you opponent (or open him up for a strike).
Ran: Although this technique is not a single-time action, offending and defending at the same time, it does open the adversary up for a counter thrust.
Jake: Binding is a tricky thing, and risky without sufficient skill...
Ran: Yes, I think one of the masters noted that many men died trying to learn how to work at the bind. A bind is hard to come out of without someone getting hurt.
Jake: ...if what you're describing is correct, then why even bother when a meisterhau or forceful versetzen would do the same job even more effectively.
Ran: The Zornhau is a master cut (Bart noted on SFI that this term was not used until the mid-1500s). Is your Zornhau not a versetzen in this technique? Your Zornhau displaces the adversary's Zornhau.
Good luck. Hope to see you at the big event.
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