Mittelhau mechanics?

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey Kathryn:

> Instead of cutting straight back with the short edge, twitch
> around the head, like a helicopter, and deliver a stroke from
> the left with the short edge.

If I understand him correctly, he is saying to basically invert the sword upon its axis by crossing your arms and hence strike with the short edge in a way that is supported better by one's musculature.

However, I do not want to speak for him, so please forgive me if this turns out to mischaracterise his interesting *helicopter* metaphor.

JH

[leam hall]

Well, "Mike" is better than what my ex-wife used to call me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'll try to explain what i understand of Jake's suggestion and my own as well. For Jake's you hit the target from the side in mittelhau and then without withdrawing you lever it 360 degrees on a flat plane to his the *other* side of his head. I've practiced this alone and it can be zippy quick.

For mine after you flip the blade over for the second hit you continue past the target and then pass through a tail guard to bring it up in an unterhau. Your knuckles would go from passing the target to pointing down and then back up as you did the unterhau.

I *think* that explains it. I've avoided using left and right as I'm left handed and I *knew* I'd confuse myself and probably a few others.

[Kathryn_Woods]

Hi, Leam,

Ooops! Sorry about the misquote, there. New *and* dumb. ; )

But thanks for the clarification, and I think I'm getting a better visualization of what folk are talking about. Hopefully Jake will be on soon to confirm or deny what you and Jeffrey have suggested about "the helicopter". I, on the other hand, am headed outside to terrorize the neigh--I mean, to try this stuff out. Thanks bunches!

-- Kat

[leam hall]

Hey, you've got Shane and the VAB guys nearby, right? In no time you'll be beating^H^H^H^H^H^H^H doing well!

[Kathryn_Woods]

Hi Leam,

> Hey, you've got Shane and the VAB guys nearby, right? In
> no time you'll be beating^H^H^H^H^H^H^H doing well!

Pffff -- more likely, I'll be taking your sig on as my own! ; ) Seriously, though, yes, I have met the VAB guys (well, I've met Shane, Matt, Cathy, and Joel) and they are terrific. I think I'm hooked!

-- Kat

P.S. I've tried out some of the different swipes, and I agree that Jake's take on it (if the various interpretations are correct) is really powerful. Now if I can just get to the point where I'm not klonking myself in the head with my crossguard, I'll be a happy Kat. --K

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Kathryn.

A "twitch" (zucken) is a sudden withdrawal of one's blade from contact or near-contact in order to make a strike at another opening, usually on the other side of the opponent (it's called a rusher--schneller in German--if it doesn't make contact, but in truth the terms are often interchangeable).

Once you complete that first mittlehau or zwerchau, pull the blade away from it's "final point" along the same trajectory that you cut, and keep on going around your head (sort of...the hilt stays in front of your face) in a "helicopter" motion, to land a strike with the opposite edge on the opposite side of the head (or other part of the upper opening). If your thumb is on your cross/ricasso underneath your blade this is very, very easy, but also will have you hitting with the short edge from the right (and long from the left)...which is how it is most often depicted in the manuals, anyway.

Does that help?

Jake

[Kathryn_Woods]

Hi, Jake,

> Once you complete that first mittlehau or zwerchau, pull
> the blade away from it's "final point" along the same
> trajectory that you cut, and keep on going around your
> head (sort of...the hilt stays in front of your face) in
> a "helicopter" motion, to land a strike with the opposite
> edge on the opposite side of the head (or other part of the
> upper opening). If your thumb is on your cross/ricasso
> underneath your blade this is very, very easy, but also will
> have you hitting with the short edge from the right (and long
> from the left)...which is how it is most often depicted in the
> manuals, anyway.

I think I'm beginning to get it, though I'm still a bit confused, so please bear with me. I'm doing the mittlehau from middle vom Tag, right to left, cutting with the long edge. In this "twitch", I'm bringing the sword back around over my head, so that the tip comes around behind my head right to left (clockwise, if you were looking directly down from above me), and then I'm cutting into the opponent's head (or into the opening) with the short edge of the sword from the left to the right as it comes full circle. My wrists end up crossed (they weren't in the beginning). Is this correct?

When you say "hitting with the short edge from the right", that's where I'm confused. My right? Or my opponent's? 'Cause I already struck from right to left -- am I mistaken that this twitch ends up in a left-to-right strike?

Thanks!

-- Kat

[Jake_Norwood]

You've got it, I think. The arms are not crossed on the initial strike from the right (your right), and they are crossed on the second strike from (your) left. Correct.

But honestly, while you *can* do it that way (and they did, too), the Zwerch is generally a superior technique (and it's a Miesterhau to boot). The zwerch is the same thing, but strike with the short edge from your right. Align the blade by turning the long edge inside (when in pflug, frex), and putting the thump on the flat of your blade, so that you're actually holding the weapon sideways. Now strike with the short edge along a horizontal line to the ears, fully extending your point and arms and keeping the hilt out before your face. Your thumb will be under the sword if you're doing it right.

Once this strike hits (or not), "twitch" it around to the other side, keeping the thumb underneath and the hilt in front of you, and strike to the other side with the long edge (his right, your left).

That's a zwerch and a zucken (and maybe a schneller, too). All important techniques crucial for "fencing to the four openings" and striking from the bind--core stuff for the "German Tradition."

And yes, it's quite powerful!

I hope I'm not confusing you further.

Jake

[Shane Smith]

Kat,
I think you are confused because we did not show you the zwerchau on sunday as part of the 8-cut drill.The Master cuts are not part of an introductory two hour class. If you make it out this sunday, I'll show you what Jake is explaining faster than you can read this post.It's elementary, but not first time training elementary. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Jeffrey Hull]

Hey Guys,

If you would indulge the idea of the lower belly-level mittelhau with longsword again for a bit, I would like to relate some recent analysis:

The idea I sported of *pushing* it, like what helps in the unterhau, seems indeed to turn it into just that: a shallow-angled unterhau, no longer really a true horizontal strike. I am usure if this has to do with general human or personal kinetics.

However, when I focused on the element of *levering* the hands &amp; arms as I strike, I find that a faster and truly horizontal gut-level mittelhau is achieved satisfactorily. All this is achieved well out of nebenhut upon each side, with some shifting of grip and/or ebbing of lead-hand aiding proper edge-alignment as needed. Caveat - such levering alone is not suggested as the only element, but seems key to supporting a superior strike of this manner along with important elements of arm-extension, treading in time, and putting the body into it.

I feel remiss for not really analysing this way of making mittlehau more thoroughly until now. I should work on this more to understand it better.

Comments about this are welcome.

JH

[Shane Smith]

Jake, I think I mis-used my terms in my above post. I was thinking "mittelhau" in a generic horizontal cuttish way. You were using it in it's manual specific context(Always good policy <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) .I should have been more precise in my terminology(And yes, those Italians do have a horizontal generically called "Volante"). In context of the eight cut drill, I simply meant to relate that there are more diversified horizontal cuts represented in the source texts as a whole than simply the Zwerch. I stand corrected on my terminolgy but stand by my core assertion. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

The idea I sported of *pushing* it, like what helps in the unterhau, seems indeed to turn it into just that: a shallow-angled unterhau, no longer really a true horizontal strike. I am usure if this has to do with general human or personal kinetics.

However, when I focused on the element of *levering* the hands &amp; arms as I strike, I find that a faster and truly horizontal gut-level mittelhau is achieved satisfactorily. All this is achieved well out of nebenhut upon each side, with some shifting of grip and/or ebbing of lead-hand aiding proper edge-alignment as needed. Caveat - such levering alone is not suggested as the only element, but seems key to supporting a superior strike of this manner along with important elements of arm-extension, treading in time, and putting the body into it.

Here's my problem: It's a weak cut, it has no range advantage and no geometric advantage (covering lines of attack while attacking, etc.). I practiced it constantly for years, and almost never found a suitable opportunity to use it. And, AFAIK, it's not in any manuals. But other cuts, as depicted above, are, and the fulfill all those other needs.

So does this version, across the belly, offer any advantages or arguments either mechanically or from the manuals? I don't think it does. In fact, I think it's something that we're holding onto because it's "how we started." We are "clinging to the wicked traditions of our forefathers," perhaps, to quote a favorite religious text of mine (take the wicked part with a grain of salt).

I'll be happily proven wrong if I'm mistaken...but I don't think that I am.

Jake

[Casper Bradak]

I completely agree, but the horizontal cut is obviously as instinctive as any peasants cut (and I would include it in that term) and in that light I don't think it's a "theatrical" cut. I think it would be a mistake to remove it from your repertoir, even if you never had true time or place to use it.
A likely useless upside is its great mechanical follow-through as compared to a zwerch (such as removing both legs apparently rather horizontally, for example).
Like you said, it has no real advantage, but like others have said, everything has its time and place.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Shane. I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but going on the assumption that I do,,,

There are, of course, more than one horizontal cut which could probably in modern times be referred to as mittelhauwen, sure.

But if I had to chose one clearly dominant horizontal cut, it's the zwerch all the way.

Actually, now that I think of it, other than mittelhau, zwerch, and volante, what middle or horizontal cuts are there?

Jake

[Jake_Norwood]

Well, come on now, everything? Sure, you'll take a pot-shot at the belly if you get the chance, but if you raise your hilt you're not only now making an unterhau, but you're also protecting your upper openings while hitting the belly. The "low" mittelhau does none of that. I think it's a bad cut, and I think that the masters didn't teach it. But again, I'm more than willing to stand corrected if there's good reason.

In fact, every time I've seen that cut used in sparring, the executor has been badly beaten or even disarmed himself.

Jake