Rear naked choke?

[JeffGentry]

Hey David

The RNC is a good solid technique, and it does work quickly when done right, no argument there.

As you describe the counter, it seems I could just extend my right foot beyond his grasp if I anticipated it, no?

The counter i was describing is not to eliminate the body triangle, the counter is a submission while you are on his back it is a knee pinch using the triangle you so conviently provide trying to keep your feet safe, make's more sense when you see it, or even feel it.


The thing is if you do not see the counter it is harder to anticipate it and correctly counter, the counter.

CAC, all in wrestling is more attack and find a submission no matter were you are top, bottom, side, the good old WMA philosophy use an attack to defend.

I'll try to get it on video and post it for you to take a look at and then you can try it.

Just another weapon in the arsenal.

Mike
He has another one he call's the banana split, you might have heard of that one.

Jeff

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

I know the Catch style counter which you are trying to describe, basically a "squeeze lock", similar to the one that you do from half-guard --the half guard one you use your own shin as opposed to using the opponents.

That being said, there are 2 points to consider -- 1. In my experience, that particular lock is very low percentage of success in that particular situation. It works a bit better as a counter to a poorly applied triangle choke-- as a matter of fact, most of the Catch Wrestling style lower body submissions are very, very punishing, and most effective when you are on top of someone in their guard. The lock against the crossed ankles is devastating, as mentioned earlier, and something that happens quite often.

2. Since we are a Western Martial Arts forum, and Catch has been brought up, Catch would prefer to do a neck crank over a Rear Naked Choke regardless, or at least crank along with the choke.---the "flavor" of the locks is much different than Asian styles, not quite as elegant, but very brutal and punishing, often leaving you multiple joints under attack which you can only defend by conceding something else.

It is neat to find some other people that have spent some time in Catch gyms on this forum. I think Catch fits with the spirit of traditional western MA better than BJJ or Judo. I get the "feeling" that it combines the best with blade work --hold, immobilize, or disable long enough to employ a weapon.

In terms of the classical western Masters, I see that Marozzo plates have a bit of ground fighting--man on back on guard against dagger wielding opponent. Is it proper historically to consider the plates as a type of "shorthand" due to writing/printing/distribution methods of the time? If so Marozzo shows the supine fighter controlling wrists and hips, which I interpret as the principle that he is trying to convey.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Kyro

I think i know which one your talking about, that is a another good one.

Actualy I have not spent time in a catch gym, Since I heard/saw some of the Matt Fury stuff I have been fasicnated by it, I have been trying to get my hand's on video's and such when i can.

Yes i love the "flavour" of the lock's, and as you said if you defend against one you expose something else and IIRC it is derived from Lancshire wrestling from the 1800's which IMO look's to be from older wrestling so i think that may be why it seem's to be a good fit with WMA.


Jeff

I just wish we saw more of it in MMA.

[Logan Weed]

As I understand it the best way to defend against a standing rear naked choke is to flip them over your back, lock their arm and then kick/stomp at their head.

Not sure why you'd want to apply a choke in a knife fight. If he's that close and you've immobilized his knife arm you should be stabbing him to death, not choking him. If you haven't immobilized his knife arm then two seconds is blenty of time for him to kill you.

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

This is a thread which always seems to pop up to the top every now and then, which is a good thing. The technical observations which come about regarding this particular topic I think really highlight the differences between bladed and unarmed combat, armoured vs. un armoured, and Eastern vs. Western.

"As I understand it the best way to defend against a standing rear naked choke is to flip them over your back, lock their arm and then kick/stomp at their head. " --only if improperly applied. Unless balance has been broken backwards, RNC really is hit or miss done standing. Im 5'8, so on large people, if I get their back standing, I still need to do a trip or something in order to get the technique. If people are of same height, there is no reason to do a "raw RNC" without a balance break or takedown involved. This gets to a situational question.....the only tactical situations I can see this happening in are either 3rd party defense/bouncing, or sneak attack(Ill assume you have a good reason).

On the other items........Ive seen that same illustration from the manual, does get the eyeballs to pop out a bit thinking that the guy is trying to choke in a knife fight, but Im leaning towards the interpretation that it is a violent, whipping type throw.......sort of like a clothesline/ Aikido Irimi Nage. Instead of wrapping the neck for a choke, I wonder if the intended action(harder to draw) would be for the arm/forearm to be pushing the jaw or trying to put a twist or misalign on the neck in order to cause damage on the fall. That seems to be the best philosophy behind even attempting throws in a blade situation --massive damage on landing.

Judo doesnt include necklocks, and traditional Catch didnt include chokes, but did LOTS of neck cranks.....East vs. West. I have no experience fighting in different types of armor, but to choke you need to get arms/collar against the correct points on the neck, and armor prevents this. How do the different types of western armor connect in the neck area? If you can get even one hand controlling the crown of the head/jaw/or other head controlling point on a supine armoured opponent are there leverage points on the armor itself which create locking opportunites? In my understanding, a great deal of the "point" of armored grappling is to gain enough of an immobilization to be able to employ a dagger, and a head/neck control which threatened damage does that very well.

Im kind of rambling, but this has been a good thread.

[JeffGentry]

I looked at the online version of the picture and i cannot tell who has the knife, the "choker" or the "chokee", the guy being "choked" is doing the throw/trip, Petter also recommend's a similar trip when grabbed from behind.

While watching UFC 60, Diego Sanchez climbed onto his opponent's back while standing and used a body triangle to hold on and was trying to choke him, without much success, his opponent got control of one arm and kept trying to get some sort of arm bar, i kept thinking he should just control his arm and jump straight back and land on Sanchez, similar to the trip.

Jeff

[KatherineJohnson]

If someone is on your back and you jump on them like that then you'll maybe knock the wind out of them but they'll probably still hold position, I've been slammed on a few occasions and it sucks but I always hold position.

There's also a video of the situation happening, i believe in PRIDE, and the guy that slammed the other guy got choked out shortly after. Once you're on the ground, belly up with someone underneath you and they have your back, you're in a bad way.

I think the guy should have armbarred sanchez by pulling downwards instead of to one side, I feel he would have had a better chance of getting it then. That is afterall how our ancestors did it.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Judo doesnt include necklocks, and traditional Catch didnt include chokes, but did LOTS of neck cranks.....East vs. West."

"Note if an opponent falls below on your leg to cast you, as I have taught already, then fall with your body on his body,and catch around his neck with your left hand; press with it hard toward yourself, and with your right hand look for your opportunity" Meyer (forgeng translation page 245) 3.14r.7

That sounds to me like a sprawl and a guillatine choke, circa 1570.

That same manual has what I interpret as a really viscious standing neck crank/break (Forgeng translation rapier woodcut I, the fellows on the front left, pg 231). Unfortunately, no text describes it, but having walked through it several times, that is my current understanding of it.

While I can't speak for Judo, IMO our understanding of ringen is too primitive at the moment to have a sense of its "flavor" in the same we can say that something looks or feels like Aikido or Muay Thai. In terms of chokes and neck cranks, those are just 2 examples of both in ringen I am aware of. I assume there are more

[Mike Cartier]

Thats exactly how i interpreta that Meyer wrestling action Jaron. its a guillotine, albeit poorly explained.

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

Ditto on that guillotine......interesting thing with the Meyer plates is that you sometimes see limbs being grabbed, sometimes clothing. I traditional Swiss Schwingen wrestling does clothing(belt) grabs.

I dont think the guillotine is necessarily poorly explained, but I think the wording about the right hand is to instuct the student that if that position is held, the right hand has an opening to pull dagger, strike, or finish the choke.

I really like Meyer. I think in the history of Western Martial Arts, he shows the height of development of a "complete curriculum".....I think the history of Western sword arts shows a shift from "fighting, with swords" to "swordfighting"--going from an all out fight to a stylized duel between gentleman.

Good thread

[Jaron Bernstein]

"I really like Meyer. I think in the history of Western Martial Arts, he shows the height of development of a "complete curriculum""

I am not so sure of that. I see Meyer more as a really good codification in teachable form of long existing material, with a start to degenerate into more of a sport fencing (can you say prelhau?) approach. But even with that, the clarity of described techniques and the woodcuts make it so worthwhile, even if he isn't as close to the battle as a Dobringer or a Ringeck.

There are various approaches. You can read Meyer's (for the most part at least) really clear lessons and try to filter out the sport stuff. Or you can do Ringeck, Fiore and company's purer combat stuff and work to fill in the lacunae. Both have their uses.

[Jake_Norwood]

Don't even get me started on this sport business...

[Mike Cartier]

yes lets not start that sporting business stuff mister!!

*grabs a rope*


Actually i think the sporting stuff is only slightly evidenced in Meyers longsword, the thrusting is there if you look for it (see my recent post on thrusting on the Meyer yahho Group). Prellhauw is a wonderful strike and even though you use the flat it starts and ends with good strikes.

My theory on flat strikes is not that they are usefull with a floppy Fechtschulen sword but rather that the use of the flat makes it
1)easier to bounce of his parry and Zucken as well as making it hard to for the opponent to bind on your sword and

2) if the flat hits it gets your attention, which i think is the idea , allowing you to make the last hit.
Win win situation IMO.

I am in agreement with John Clements on the Fechtschulen swords, we have no proof they were floppy, and everything i know about swords tells me that a floppy sword sucks so what good would a floppy training sword do you for training with a real non-floppy sword.

I think Meyer represents the transition from battlefield use of the art to duelling and self defense via the avenue of sporting events. Remember sporting combat arts are the backbone of western martial arts, virtually all western martial arts are also represented by a sporting version which allows practitioners to develop high level attributes very similar to the combat use of the arts.

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Actually i think the sporting stuff is only slightly evidenced in Meyers longsword, the thrusting is there if you look for it (see my recent post on thrusting on the Meyer yahho Group)."

I agree with this. I am not saying any more than a very small portion of Meyer is sporting. But I think you do see a shift in emphasis compared to earlier manuals. For example, there is not as much schwertnemen or ringen am schwert as you find in Fiori or Ringeck. The schwertnemen in Meyer IS the same material as in earlier manuals (and explained and illustrated far better and more systematically). But there IS less of it. I speculate (and might very well be wrong) this is partly due to the decline in plate and the fighting "climate" in which the Lichtenauer tradition thrived.


" Prellhauw is a wonderful strike and even though you use the flat it starts and ends with good strikes."

Are you aware of the Prelhau being described anywhere outside of Meyer?

Good discussion. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Logan Weed]

What is this prelhau and where can I find it? Hopefully I don't come off as lazy here, I'm just not nearly as familiar with the manuals as most of you.