The 12 Rules

[Casper Bradak]

8. Strike Vor (“before”) and Nach (“after”), do not close in too early.
9. If you fight near the body, do not avoid the Zeckrur (“provocations”).
CASPERS INPUT: I think that #8 is straight forward. Vor and Nach are the best times to gain the place, and not moving in too early is part of the timing.
#9 I don't understand. Could be be speaking about using your sword closely? And not falling for falsings? If you're using your weapon closely, you shouldn't ignoe pfober zagel?

[John_Clements]

5. Remember the flat of the blade, do not fence left if you are right.

Again, here is a two part rule. This can be pretty easily interpreted to mean to use the flat in receiving strikes as passive defenses, such as in the Pflug and Hengen and Shrankhut. There is not much of any other reason to state it (although. Meyer later does refer to making a blow with the flat).
The second part of this seems to be a reference to being right or left handed, as cutting from the opposite side can cross the wrists. However, it could also mean that whichever leg you have forward, cut to the opposite side so you can pass into the blow with more force.

JC

[George Turner]

That's a very interesting take on right and left. I would've thought that the advice is for left and right-handed people, but this really wouldn't make much sense. Left-handed people are already well aware of how to make things work for them, and don't need a master to point this out. They've actually got more experience at this kind of thing than right-handed people.

If I understand your take on this, you're suggesting he means "don't fight crossed-up if your legs get out of sync with your arms". If I lead with my left, then pass forward with a blow from the right, but then return my sword to my right side, I'm leading with my right leg with my sword on the right. I can't make a very good cut from this position, nor can I make a good cut by passing forward. Yet my left side is exposed, and passing back won't correct this problem, since my left foot will end up being forward, and my sword is either still on the right, or brought around very weakly. I can see where someone would definitely say don't get caught doing this, or at least don't make it a habit.

George Turner
ARMA in KY

[Jake_Norwood]

5. Remember the flat of the blade, do not fence left if you are right.

Could it mean even to hold your sword right-handedly if you're right handed, etc? We've got a left-handed guy who did some EMA for quite a while, and he frequently changes his grip so that either hand could be "top" at any time. This leaves him crossed up at the wrong moment pretty frequently. I admit that this interperetation might be a little far out, but then again...

[Guest]

Nothing is clear on this rules, but as Pauerfeindt's teaching is very close to Meyer's one, it wouldn't be impossible that this rule spoke about striking with the flat. He does give examples of this during a few techniques.
On the other hand, it does also teach often to let the opponent's blade to slide along our sword, so it could be possible that this rule is about parrying with the flat.

But i'm still with Didier, i do not believe that these rules should be analysed two by two, but by his reconstitution of the probable original cut.

[Randall Pleasant]

5. Remember the flat of the blade, do not fence left if you are right.

Michael

I disagree. I think Rule #5 is very clear. In regard to the first part of the rule, I can not think of any reason why I would strike an adversary with the flat of my sword when I can strike and cut him with my edge. Therefore, I can only conclude that the rule is saying that one should remember to parry with the flat of their sword. In regard to the second part of the rule, it reads a lot like Ringeck. Ringneck says that if one is right handed then they should throw their first blow from their right side so that if they do bind then they are on their strong side (and their arms are not crossed). I believe that the second part of the rule is based on the same logic as Ringneck's statements.

[Mike Cartier]

5. Remember the flat of the blade, do not fence left if you are right.

I am inclined to follow JC's idea on the second part
Just saying fence right if you are right handed doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but saying fence left if you are left and fence right if you are right makes sense becasue it applies to either side as a principle rather than to only one side as a rule.
i feel almost as much power with a Krumphau as I do with my Zornhau

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike

Indeed the rule does apply to both sides. Ringneck is also clear that if one is right handed then fence from the right and if one is left handed then fence from the left. In both cases, if you bind on the weak side your arms are crossed.

[Guest]

Could this not also be an admonition to the new student to make sure that the blade does strike at the percussion point, "the length " rather than with the very, very tip of the blade which would not "cut strongly?" It is easy for a beginner in any physical activity to misjudge distance and timing, and, as this these are vital to swordsmanship, it would be worth stressing.

[Guest]

-Randall-

I just remark that Pauerfeindt advise sometime to strike with the flat. For ex: in the schlaudern piece: "Zuck und Schlauder von unden mit der fleche an sein rechtes ohr" or in Ubergreiffen "und zuck ihm dein fleche an sein recht ohr". Meyer did the same sometimes, as, if i remember correctly, Doebringer.
Our opinion is that striking with the flat maybe useful to used the bounce effect against his parry to go faster in the other side (schlaudern means that "catapult" effect), or to use the whip-effect the modern fencer know well (to strike behind the parry), or maybe to just stun the opponent (remember that at that era, the fights become more and more sport-oriented).
Pauerfeindt advise also more than once to parry with the flat to let the opponent's sword slide away, so this rule is ambiguous. Maybe this rule mean both and that he advise to remember that a sword's blade is not just 2 edges and a point, but also a flat that should be used to parry and attack.

For the second part (which IMHO is part of another rule), i think you are right, it is probably the correspondance of Liechtenauer's verses "Höre, waß da schlecht ist, ficht nitt oben linck, so du recht bist, vnd ob du linck bist, im rechten auch ser hinckest"

[John_Clements]

6. Search for Schwech [“weak”] und Sterck [“strong”], remember this word In des.

This is an important element of fighting (and one “I have always tried to stress in my classes and practices). To develop sensitivity to your opponent’s actions and gauge their pressure –their “Fühlen” is a part of many fighting arts.
This rule refers then to whether you press against the strong of weak of their sword, or they press against yours, as well as whether than pressure is hard or soft.

Interestingly, the second part of this refers to something else, but related, the idea of attacking in the middle of their action (mezzo tempo) or simultaneously striking your response, as opposed to doing so either before or after. This ‘middle time’ attack is defensive, to displace, whereas before and after can be seen as either a preemptive attack or a counter strike.

JC

[John_Clements]

BTW, Hans Heim points out that the word "flech" hear does indeed mean "flat", it appears in hans Cyznner's manaul of c. 1500 in this way under the Twelve Rules listed there. But in the later edition of Leckuechner from c.1558, it is mispelled as "fech", unlike the 1531 version here.

[John_Clements]

7. Test Weych [“soft”] or Hert [“hard”], Nachreisen should be your endeavour.

Here is my take on this:
To test hard or soft means that when engaged in a crossed weapons position, to guage your opponent's intention and pressure, to test their disposition and sense whether their force is strong or weak, giving or resisting, and respond accordingly. Press or release, push or pull, in order to create an opening and control their actions and dominate the position. Continually test them by subtle minute judements of their "feeling". And when the opening appears or is made, suddenly in the middle of it strike (the principle of Nach).

JC

[Mike Cartier]

I think i understand the hard and soft part, what about the strikeing is that also called twitching?
Winding and then breaking the flow in one direction or another, hard or soft to strike out.
the strikeing out part being to twitch?

[Jake_Norwood]

I've been looking a lot at "hard and soft" in Ringeck lately, and it seems an area that has been neglected (at least in comparison to the emphasis Ringeck puts on it) in my studies. What's funny is that in my karate class (white belt, baby!) we're working on the same principles, but as they apply to grappling.