Doebringer

[Jake_Norwood]

Where do you suppose the center of mass for the weapon is?

Jake

[Sean_Gallaty]

I wouldn't suppose, I think the only responsible thing would be to observe, handle and measure the weapons intended to be used for whatever cut he's describing - if that were possible.

I admit I am clearly the most inexperienced person commenting here, and I freely grant the caveat.

That being said, the center of mass on any weapon with a weighted pommel is going to be somewhere towards the pommel end of the weapon at a function of the taper and length of the blade, length of the grip, weight of the guard and weight of the pommel...

I apologize in advance for any foolishness I may be committing out of ignorance, but my understanding is that 'Oakeshott' type weapons have their center of mass, or 'point of balance' somewhere before the guard. ~3 inches on a hand and a half measured sword seems consistent.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Sean.

I'm not trying to lure you in or anything. I'm just trying to understand the physics you're proposing (I haven't studied physics for 10 years). If the "balance point" is about 3 inches up from the cross, towards the point, then how does holding the weapon on the grip and not the pommel affect that? I'm not sure that I understand one way or the other.

Jake

[Sean_Gallaty]

Sorry, too many years of being on forums. It has made me suspicious, and wary. Forgive me, and I'll work hard to clear that prejudice.

The closer the hand is to the pivot point, the less the hand traverses when the blade traverses in the arc. The further it is, the longer the arc of the movement of the hand.

If the motion is the 'whip snap wrist', a hand on the pommel will slow the blade down.

if you've done karate, imagine a front stance - right leg bent, foot forward, shin vertical, rear leg locked feet shoulder width apart, rear heel ON THE GROUND!

Power comes from the heel, through the leg, to the hips and the motion of the body hip thrust forward, then add shoulder rotation, then add elbow forward (like a baseball pitch) then with weapon striking length back towards shoulder move forearm forward and extend - and 'transmit' all of that motion energy into rotation energy in the weapon, ideally striking with a harmonic point (I don't know what this is called in arma terms) so that the energy remains in the target.

You'll have to forgive me, I've spent most of my life casually sparring, dueling, fencing with improvised padded weapons, shinai, wooden weapons etc. and reading/researching about swords and armor and I had no idea anything like ARMA existed. It's awkward to meet and speak with people who are more knowledgeable about something that I had previously never met anyone to discuss with at all.

I'm trying to assess what ARMA is about, and how serious it is. Ringen appeals to me, especially Ringen and dirk/dagger. I am into martial arts for the practicality, discipline, rigor, and ultimately again the practicality. I don't want to fight anyone, ever but when I do, it'll be a situation where they've given me no other option and in that case the last thing I want is to hold back and jeopardize myself or my objective. Man what a mouthful.

Anyhow, making a short story very long -

does this strike not sound familiar to you?

[GaryGrzybek]

Very true...

Grip length plays a very large role in the handling of a particular weapon not too mention the techniques we try to employ. I'm fond of a longer grip myself.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Sean. No harm, no foul.

The overwhelming bulk of images shows strikes being made with the left hand on or at least touching the pommel. A few images of figures in guards (von Danzig and Goliath, to name two) show the hands closer together, but once movement starts the hands seem to widen out again. Also, why such a long grip if not to use it? The swords shown in dei Liberi, for example, have much shorter grips (which, I believe, changes the mechanics just enough to matter a bit).

I *think* that Doebringer is saying not to envelop the pommel, but not that your hands shouldn't generally be pretty spread out. If they're too close together you lose power and control, both of which are bad to lose, even at the gain of a little bit of speed.


Oh, and I know the strike you're talking about, sure.
Jake

[Sean_Gallaty]

My overwhelming concern is that I think I am onto something but how to validate it without real contact - I am very concerned about the distortion introduced by the safety necessity. I.e. balance/weight/lethality differences of practice environments vs practical ones and the affect it has on technique.

How can I know if a move is lethal or effective? To me with sparring and weapon practice the hardest thing has been having both parties maintain the discipline to not do 'unrealistic' things taking advantage of the practice medium.

As soon as one party exploits the practice medium, the other party chooses to lose in sparring or match them... assuming they even realize they are slipping down that slope.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Sean.

I know you're new, but how much familiarity do you have with the "ARMA training methodology," using wasters, padded swords, blunt steel, and steel sharps for cutting?

The idea is to gain elements of the whole skill/discipline from a variety of tools to triangulate the proper final product.

Wasters are used as safe alternatives to real swords for solo work, partner drills, and light sparring. They are relatively safe and an easy way to begin learning how the techniques work without fear of injuring one another. Padded weapons are used for sparring at full speed and contact. Of all the available tools these are the least like the "real" thing, but they're much safer. (I'll add that many newer versions of sparring weapons are better than many older versions of wasters). Blunt steel fills a very similar role to wasters (solo work, drills, light sparring with a partner), but they require much more control and, really, experience. I've got to trust someone before doing anything with steel weapons. Finally steel sharps are used for test cutting on a variety of targets, hard and soft, for the testing and refinement of form, power, edge placement, etc.

These things, added to specific elements of the "Armatura" (ARMA practice drills and exercises) get us closer than any one of them could. Part of the reason that ARMA members tend to excell as fighters (over many other groups out there) is this very approach--martial, practical, distributed. As long as your training doesn't focus on any one element (such as sparring or cutting) practice partners won't be able to take too much advantage of the limitations of one medium without sacrificing ability in another.

Does that address the issue?

Jake

[M Wallgren]

Check out the sword here. Just scroll down...

http://www.grm.se/grennamuseer/

Sommaren 2000 fick en fiskare i Vättern en ovanlig fångst. Från ca 50m djup drog han upp ett svärd daterat till senare delen av 1400-talet.
Svärdet är i det närmaste intakt, i sin balja, och mäter ca 120 cm. Efter fyra års konservering på Riksantikvarieämbetet är svärdet nu åter på Grenna Museum, i den lokalhistoriska utställningen. Fotografiet visar svärdets fäste med balansknoppen och den karakteristiska svängda parerstången. Foto: Karin Lindahl, Riksantikvarieämbetet.
Ett uppdrag har nu lämnats till vapensmeden Peter Johnsson att smida och tillverka en kopia av Vätternsvärdet. Det är meningen att du som besökare, under kontrollerade former, ska få en upplevelse av originalets vikt och balans.

This roughly translates;
The summer of 2004 a sportsfisherman got somethin different on the hook in the lake Vättern. From a depth of 50 meter he pulled up a sword later dated to the last half of the 15th century. (If somebody wonders about the 1400 in the swedish text we call the 15th century the 14th because the years beginns with 14.) The sword is almost intact, in it´s scabbard and measures close to 120 cetimeter. After four years of concervation of the national concervation board, the sword is now back at the Gränna museum, in the localhistory exebition. The photograf shows the handle with it´s pommel and characteristic S shaped cross. Photo: Karin Lindahl, the national concervation board.
The famous swordsmith Peter Johnsson has now been commisioned to make a replica of the Vättern sword. The plan is to let you as a visitor to the museum, under rigid rules, a chance to feel the weight and balance of original the sword.


... isn´t this great!! And notise that this is not the Svante Nilsson Sture sword that Albion makes a replica of but another. The third Ive now about in Sweden with those extreme lenght on the handle.

Yes a little bit of topic, but it have a long handle <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Martin

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

I am going to throw in my $.02 worth.

Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer than if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will strike harder then if you were holding the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly.

I got the crapped smaked out of my finger a couple week's ago, and we had the sparring on video, When I looked at it I had done just that and I "pulled" the pommel up right into the strike instead of swinging the blade up to displace.


Could that maybe be what he mean's don't fully grip and start a strike by pulling the pommel?

Just a thought.

Jeff

[Sean_Gallaty]

I'm still reading, I have probably a whole repertoire of bad habits and maybe a few good ones.

I wasn't specifically speaking in regards to ARMA methods, but really any engagement with unrealistic weapons. It was intended as more of an open question than a challenge.

Even martial arts where it's just hands and feet I've felt I was experiencing 'exploitation of context' where people did things that would win a match but not win or even hurt them in a fight. Exposing moves that scored a light hit, to be precise.

You raise a good point, and I'll read what I can here. Where's a good place to start about ARMA methods? I'll look, just in case I overlook something -

- nox

[JeffGentry]

Hey Sean

Where's a good place to start about ARMA methods? I'll look, just in case I overlook something -

Just go up to the top of this page to the "Where to start" it will take you to all you want to know about ARMA and our method and training philosphy.

Jeff

[Sean_Gallaty]

Aren't I attentive. I've been to every other link on the site, really.

[JeffGentry]

Sean
There is alot here to read, it can be a little confusing trying to go through it all, take your time.

Jeff