Mittelhau mechanics?

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Casper Bradak
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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Casper Bradak » Thu May 05, 2005 7:08 pm

Well, I've used it to good effect, though safe occasions for such have of course been rare.
For example, what makes it inferior to a stop thrust on the same horizontal plane? Nothing, as far as I know, and no one would debate the usefullness of that technique. They both lack cover, and they should both use the same footwork, and they are both used when you have the opportunity to land a good blow before he can retaliate, usually vor or nach. (with any technique, you should be able to use cut, thrust, strike or slice)
And don't forget we're talking about doing this strike well, i.e. not standing there. It should go without saying that voiding, traversing, etc. will be used.
The aspect of covering a line of attack obviously one ups this cut in most situations, and that's not being debated, but often you can recognize where you have such a time and place that that cover is not needed.
For another comparison, how about durchlaufen. You void, and trade your blade for cover and hip throw him. But say you void too wide for a hip throw, but you see that your void was good, and you have the time and place to cut his body (depending on your swords point of origin, of course).
It's not an issue that this technique will be rarely needed and rarely advised, but it does have its place.
I think the only bias against this technique is from people going about thinking of it as a movie technique, or something performed without skill, proper dexterity or foot maneuvers, or when it would get you struck in the head. Certainly not as an opening cut, or a theatrical twitching cut, or anything of the sort.
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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Thu May 05, 2005 7:19 pm

Sure, you could do it. But I don't think that it's in the manuals for a reason (unless, of course, it is...then I'm a dummy <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ). Any of our Italianates know what *exactly* Fiore says about volante trajectory?

As for the stop thrust...big difference! The stop thrust ends in langort, with the hilt in front of the head and the arms fully extended. It is superior to the cut that I think we're both talking about (I'm getting doubts...maybe we're miscommunicating here) in speed, reach, lethality, and even in recorded examples and reccomendations. I don't think that it's really a fair comparison (although I think I see where you're going with it).

For another comparison, how about durchlaufen. You void, and trade your blade for cover and hip throw him. But say you void too wide for a hip throw, but you see that your void was good, and you have the time and place to cut his body (depending on your swords point of origin, of course).


Unterhau. It covers the head, is superior at that range, threatens with a thrust, and is recorded in the manuals. I don't see how the belly-level mittelhau does any of these things.

That doesn't mean that should the opportunity arise that I wouldn't do it because it was my only choice or whatever, but I'm not going to *train* in an otherwise completely inferior technique that I don't think is even in the manuals. I might as well take up edge blocking in hollywood...

Hope I didn't sound too agressive there. I've just been on the total re-evaluation of everything that I do and have done for the last few years on account of some of the research that I'm doing right now, and I need to be convinced whether certain assumptions we've been operating on for the last several years are just "fill in the gaps" that we can finally discard, or legitimate, useful techniques that the masters themselves would have trained in or advocated.

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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Casper Bradak » Thu May 05, 2005 7:36 pm

Not too agressive at all. If you didn't know, I argue about a lot of things I don't even believe in just to get the valuable responses lol. It's all in good fun and info.

As for the stop thrust...big difference! The stop thrust ends in langort, with the hilt in front of the head and the arms fully extended. It is superior to the cut that I think we're both talking about (I'm getting doubts...maybe we're miscommunicating here) in speed, reach, lethality, and even in recorded examples and reccomendations. I don't think that it's really a fair comparison (although I think I see where you're going with it)


Alright, the stop thrust ends in langort, wherever you choose to end the mittlehau, it passes through langort. But on the other hand, most depictions of the stop thrust are in more of a pflug position, having traversed, as you should with the cut, and the hilt is low.
Whether the cut or thrust is superior is an endless debate. Speed only dependent on point of origin, and if you have the proper place, it's not such an issue, as is well described by Master Di Grassi (say you started in nebenhut).
Definitely not superior in reach (you have to penetrate the same distance with either, though a inch in the gut with a point may do little, it'll disembowel with a cut).
Likewise, with the proper penetration, a cut will cause more damage, passing through more organs, than a thrust, and therefore be more lethal, especially in the gut. (severing the sinews, maim incurable, yadda yadda)
I think it's a fair comparison. Though, again, I'd go with the thrust 99% of the time.

Unterhau. It covers the head, is superior at that range, threatens with a thrust, and is recorded in the manuals. I don't see how the belly-level mittelhau does any of these things.

That doesn't mean that should the opportunity arise that I wouldn't do it because it was my only choice or whatever, but I'm not going to *train* in an otherwise completely inferior technique that I don't think is even in the manuals. I might as well take up edge blocking in hollywood


Again, an often superior choice, and margin for error never hurt anyone. But, you don't always need that margin for error. And when you recognize that, the mittlehau will give you more power than an unterhau, which may turn out to be more of a "pressing the hands". And power means stopping power. The unterhau will likely need follow up. The mittlehau would be an all out cut, hopefully being a single decisive movement.
I can understand not "training" in the horizontal mittlehau. Like I said, it's so basic, and generally inferior, but I asssert it still has its place, if you can recognise it.
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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Thu May 05, 2005 7:49 pm

As I suspected, we're not fully talking about the same thing. The mittelhau you're talking about passes through langort--meaning that it hits at the chest or head, if I'm not mistaken. That's a normal "manual" mittelhau. OTOH, there is a mittelhau that we've most all trained in at one point or another where the elbows stay a little closer into the body and the point hits at the bottom of the ribcage or below (not langort). That's the one I'm ranting at. And in practice, the "right" mittelhau is more like the zwerch, anyway.


most depictions of the stop thrust are in more of a pflug position, having traversed, as you should with the cut, and the hilt is low.


Out of curiosity, what depictions are you referring to?

And when you recognize that, the mittlehau will give you more power than an unterhau, which may turn out to be more of a "pressing the hands".


Maybe we unterhau differently, because the unterhau can be quite powerful so long as it't not that sweeping-up cut, but rather a snap as I *believe* it's most often depicted in the manuals. But that's another discussion!

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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Casper Bradak » Thu May 05, 2005 8:01 pm

Dang, another argument nullified. But yeah, I'm not talking about an arms-pulled-in, waist high cut. And yeah, I didn't have the snapping unterhau in mind.
Out of curiosity, what depictions are you referring to


I don't remember specifics, I think they were from Mair or Meyer, maybe both. My memory could be faulty, but I seem to remember the images showing a long traverse/lunge vs. someone moving through vom tag. The pflug position because of both opponents moving forward, the thruster moving by the side, and the models not wanting to kill each other. It would of course be long point or near such after the thrust but before recovery. I'll have to look it up again.
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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Thu May 05, 2005 8:30 pm

Yeah, look that up for me.

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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Casper Bradak » Thu May 05, 2005 9:30 pm

Alright, I found one, more or less as I recalled.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/92.jpg
Of course, it's a given that I could be completely wrong, as I'm not privy to any translations and I don't read much antique german cursive.
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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Brian Hunt » Fri May 06, 2005 12:35 am

The title reads "Einn feler auf den pflug an in fug."

roughly translated as "a feler (mistake? failing?) from the plow on into the joint."

The higgens glossary says that the feler may be an attack that deliberatly avoids contact with the opponents body or weapon. It is called an "fehler" in Meyer. Jake, any reference here?

The Latin reads as "Ictus erraticus contra ictum qui dicitur aratrum eius supra facta est mentio luculenta addita deseriptione."

roughly "A erratic strike against a strike that is named the plow that is to be mentioned above the brilliantly added description."

hope this helps some.

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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Fri May 06, 2005 1:32 pm

Jake,

I appreciate your viewpoint and would even agree that the belly-level mittelhau often gives way to the higher one, the zwerch, being superior or at least more common.

But I still regard the idea, which Casper expressed, as having merit - the various permutations have their time and place, and I would still include it in the striking arsenal that one practices. I admit that the five (at least) fightbooks that do mention mittelhau are arguable in what they mean by the term, and a couple associate it (if not equate it) with zwerch.

Now the observation of the lower mittlehau being weak is not totally wrong, but I do not think it totally right. That is exactly why I am recently exploring it with the assumption that it can be strong -- I think I just need to understand better how to make it so, if I can. If not, then either I am missing something profound, or you are indeed totally right <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

In other words, I think that the lower mittelhau may be weak due to modern autodidactic shortcomings in understanding it, but can be strong if we figure out how it works properly, with the needed form which we may be overlooking.

That is why the levering aspect I mentioned seems key to understanding it, as hopefully further practice shall bear out. This also really needs some of my focus during my next test-cutting to give me some valid physical feedback.

Good luck,

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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri May 06, 2005 4:25 pm

The fehler (vehler) is in Doebringer. There is a related technique that does involve a thrust. I'll look into it. It's a feint of sorts, whatever it is.


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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri May 06, 2005 4:30 pm

Hold on now, the zwerch isn't the mittelhau--it's just mechanically *almost* identical...and it's by far more common in the manuals.

Here are my assertations, since I think we're getting muddied:

1) The most common horizontal cut in the manuals is the zwerch. It is superior to other horizontal cuts in more situations for a number of reasons.

2) The mittelhau (performed from the right with the long edge) must pass through long point, meaning that it's target is the upper torso, neck, or head.

3) The so-called mittelhau accross the belly is not found in any manuals and is completely inferior to any other recorded permutation of any horizontal or (for that matter) rising cut.

4) Because it's weak, inferior, and unrecorded in the manuals we should abandon this "belly-high" mittelhau in training and as part of anything that resembles curriculum (using it in the 8-cut drill, frex). Not saying that you'll never cut horizontally accross the belly (though I don't think you ever really will), but rather that it's not something to be trained in at the expense of *anything* from the manuals or even basic bio-mechanical excersises.

Anything outside of that is probably not what I'm arguing.

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Jared L. Cass
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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jared L. Cass » Fri May 06, 2005 5:17 pm

I agree with you, Jake. That lower level belly cut mittelhau has never felf right and every time I've ever tried to use it in sparring I get killed.

I had always taken for granted that the cut really exhisted in the manuals...but guess not! That is, unless the Italians have it.

On the other hand, I have successfully made this cut work when fighting with sword and buckler. David kite killed me a bunch of times with it last year in a S&amp;B vs. S&amp;dagger fight. Any belly level mittelhau present in s&amp;b or s&amp;d manuals/sections?

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Re: Mittelhau mechanics?

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri May 06, 2005 5:21 pm

Jared-

Did he cut under his buckler?

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Re: Mair's Mittlehaw.

Postby Brian Hunt » Fri May 06, 2005 10:58 pm

Hi all,

here is the translation for this plate in Mair
Image

German Translation
1. The middle-strike from both sides.
2. Note, place yourself thus into the "middle-strike" thus, stand with your left
3. foot forward, your sword with extended arms from your body on your
4. right side, pass forward with your right foot and strike yourself quickly before the
5. opponent through into the "sturzhaw", step with your left leg inside and strike
6. him to his right ear. If he displaces you thus, then strike hime quickly again to the head. If
7. he strikes you then again to the other side over your defense, and you stand with your right foot
8. forward, then twitch your sword from his "to sound (klingen)" on over-it and step with your
9. right foot behind his, thrust him with this to the chest with crossed arms. If he thrusts thust towards you,
10. then set him thus aside with your short edge, pass forward with your right foot and
11. cut/slice in with this to his head. If he displaces your cut/slice, then step with your right foot
12 to the back and shoot him the point into his face. If he shoots the point onto you thus, then set him
13. then aside with the long edge placed and "schaitel" him with this to his head.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
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Re: Mair's Mittlehaw.

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sat May 07, 2005 10:29 am

It does help. Fantastic, thanks!

Note two things--first, it's aimed at the ear, second it's naturally accompanied by twitching to the other side with displacements. Awesome.

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