Krumphau & Schielhau

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hello everybody,

My name is Szabolcs Waldmann, and I write you from Hungary.
I teach in an new international association for medieval martial arts, called the Order of the Sword (or Ordo Ensis). The teachings, videos, editorials, Fechtbuchs published by Arma and the books of Mr. Clements (...and of course our own interpretations while working with authentic swords) are our primary source for the classes.
I have a humble question. There are Meisterhaus called Krumphau and Schielhau, which is shown in your news section under "Master Cuts - what they are and what they aren't". And altough there are quite some fotos which show the technics, I simply can't figure out the working mechanics of them - on schielhau, for example, are two different sets of fotos, which show two different ways to do it (?).

Could somebody please try to explain?

thank you so much, and I wish you all a happy new year!

Szabolcs Waldmann

[Jaron Bernstein]

Well, you might want to look at Svard and Lindholms Ringeck book for a better explanation of the meisterhau, or Meyer, or contact Bart Walcaz in Poland for some hands on work.... <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[John_Clements]

Hi
I understand. They take practice. These are not the easiest things to grasp if not shown in person, or if you are use to wielding your sword only in one way. I covered these techniques at my Budapest seminar last year, maybe you can consult with some of the attendees there. Otherwise, there are several sources available which cover them in different ways which you can consult, though the interpretations and instructions can vary. In the meantime, keep experimenting. Remember, at their heart they are only ways of striking along the 8 possible lines of attack to deliver 16 possible cuts.

JC

[Mike Chidester]

Wait, Krumphau follows one of the eight lines of attack?

[Brian Hunt]

Mike,

in short, yes. There are only 8 cutting lines and all the cuts follow them. This would be much easier to show to you than to attempt to explain it in this written format, so I would reccomend that you go and ask Stewart Feil to show you how this works since you are in Provo.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Casper Bradak]

Think 3 dimensionally.

[Shane Smith]

I would need to see that one too.A krump does not conform to the rule of the eight lines in the manner in which I view the issue,but then,much depends on ones point of view. Even a krump to the hands isn't strictly in accordance with the eight cutting lines from the cutters point of view though a on-looker may disagree.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

A krump does not conform to the rule of the eight lines in the manner in which I view the issue,

Were are the rule's of the eight cut line's haven't seen them in any manuel, lol, seriously though if you can picture yourself in a box then put the eight cut line's on the right and left of you i can see it as a sort of zorn on the right or left wall of the box following the diagonal line, like you said it is a point of view thing i can see it though i had not thought of it in those term's, learn something new everyday.


Jeff

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

The Eight Cuts are, for example, shown in the codex of Fiore Dei Liberi (dlr1a.jpg).
Its remarkable, that the eight cuts you can find in almost every kind of swordsmanship, be it Egyptian or Japaneese. Some japaneese styles like Seite-Iai do not recognize the 8th cut (vertical from down to up).

The egyptians say, the 4 diagonal cuts (scalembrato and ridoppio) are a present from Seth (god of war, may be identical to Mars and Odin in other countries) to humanity, the 4 others (vertical and horizontal) were invented by humanity itself.
In iai-dó the diagonals were called "Kami-cuts" in my knowledge.
Zornhau may be the very foundation of Human swordsmanship.

Szabolcs

[Shane Smith]

Hi Jeff,
The seven lines(No-one seems to show a straight downward vertical in their diagrams) are clearly present among the opening illustrations and text in Vadi and Fiore and are intimated at in the Codex Wallerstein at a minimum.In all of these works,the lines are superimposed over a forward facing human body and indicated by Swords and/or daggers along the lines. No three-dimensional cubism(LOL! <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

All that said, I will concede that I can see where you're coming from and also that this is a minor point that is not worth us arguing over. A vertical is a vertical whether you are in front of me or to one side,yet the twisting of the arms and the striking to the left muddy the issue a bit. We must agree to different points of view on this one as either of us can mount a sound defense of our own opinion. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

I just have a warped mind, lol, i hadn't thought of it that way until i read this thread.

Jeff

[John_Clements]

The lines are those that appear on the "segno's" (cuting targets) in Fiore &amp; Vadi as well Meyer's two treatises, and which follow from the four quarter division of Liechtenuaer. The seeming lack of a vertical cut on some diagrams may very well be a result of Medieval prohibitions against drawing lines through a person's face (a way of "marking someone for death", or so I'm told).

JC