Any 'geschrenkt ortt' in Talhoffer's 1443 ?

[ChrisThies]

Does anyone know if there are any examples (image or text) of langes schwert "geschrenkt ortt" [Swabian text](a.k.a. 'cross-wise' or 'across' thrust) in Talhoffer's 'Fechtbuch aus dem Jahre 1443'? I am particularly interested if there is any example denoting a yielding parry. After an hour of trying to download off of members' area with my old fashioned dial-up modum I gave up.
In the 1467 [Rector translation] there are 2 Long Sword examples of 'geschrenkt ortt':
Plate 4, which is an example of an execution absent of bind (after voiding A's direct thrust, B 'geschrenkt ortt's);
and Plate 18, which is an example of a 'geschrenkt ortt' execution with a bind of opposition.
I viewed the 1459 plates at the Royal Library of Denmark
http://www.kb.dk/
but couldn't find any Long Sword examples of 'geschrenkt ortt' in that particular fechtbuch.
I'm wondering if there are any Talhoffer 'geschrenkt ortt' examples with a yielding parry account I would like to envision this technique as the same as or similar to Ringeck's excellent explanation that ends, '...These are the four winden from the two upper binds on the left and right hand side.', of Master L.'s "Here note how you will try the hengen and the winden." [Lindholm's translation, p.171].

[JeffGentry]

Hey Chris

I'm wondering if there are any Talhoffer 'geschrenkt ortt' examples with a yielding parry account I would like to envision this technique as the same as or similar to Ringeck's excellent explanation that ends, '...These are the four winden from the two upper binds on the left and right hand side.', of Master L.'s "Here note how you will try the hengen and the winden." [Lindholm's translation, p.171].

It seem's like your asking if Talhoffer actualy use's the hengen and winding, and you would like to see a technique of this illustrated in the Italian.

The one problem i have with the Italian text is basicly working from illustration's, From what i have seen of the Italian Longsword they are lacking in description and the drawing's are stylized so it realy make's it a little harder IMO to tell what is actualy going on.

Der lange Zornort (Stoss). - Dagegen ist der verschrankte Ort (Stoss).
The long wrathful point (thrust). - Against it is the crossed point (thrust).

Text of plate 4, I am wondering looking at the picture did the right fighter void, or did he step to an ox type of parry which would be a loose bind(yielding parry?)

Jeff

[ChrisThies]

Hello Jeff,
Thanks for your response. I think that where you stated "Italian" you actually meant "Swabian [i.e. German]", since we're just talking about Hans Talhoffer [T].

Based upon my reading of T's 1467 (Rector transl.) I agree with you that there are shortcomings in T's original presentation(s) that make it difficult for modern study. I haven't yet seen the 1443, nor the English translation of the 1459 text. Nonetheless, it is period source of images, with accompanying text, that shouldn't be shunned simply because it's not quite as clear as other period sources. I guess it just leaves more for us modern scholars to debate about <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Yes, I am wondering if there exists in T's 1443, (or the text of 1459), any display of hengen or winden. Since this is a very broad net to cast - considering that (per Ringeck) there are two winden for each of the four blossen, and for each of these 8 winden there exists the possible application of the drey wunder (strike, cut, or thrust), rendering 24 techniques - I thought that I'd focus my search upon T's geschrenckt ortt since this technique (plates 18, and 4 of T's 1467) is inherently similar to the first bind in an upper blossen of Ringeck's [R] winden explanation (see Lindholm p. 171).

To clarify the modern terms I used in my first post (i.e. 'bind of opposition' and 'yielding parry'): the first bind resulting from R's first winden is a 'bind of opposition' against the opponent's blade, R's second winden is what I'd call a 'yielding parry' (perhaps others may call it a 'non-resisting parry') account as the opponent attempts to displace your first thrust (from the first winden, the 'bind of opposition'), your second winden is actually allowing the opponent to feel some success in their attempted displacement as you quickly rotate your hilt to the opposite side and thrust from the opposite angle, all the while maintaining blade contact. I don't wish to muddy R's excellent explanation of the winden. I just thought using those modern terms to explain what I was particularly interested in any info on (from T's 1443) would be easier.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Chris

I think that where you stated "Italian" you actually meant "Swabian [i.e. German]"

I was distracted looking at two manuel's and your post forgot what i was looking at and typing, lol, I meant German.

Nonetheless, it is period source of images, with accompanying text, that shouldn't be shunned simply because it's not quite as clear as other period sources.

By no mean's do i shun Taloffer I am actualy very interested in studying his manuel, I just haven't spent as much time in his manuel as i have in Meyer and Ringeck.

In my limited study of Talhoffer he appear's to use more cutting and stabbing, not as much feeling as Ringeck and Lichty recommend.

In my opinion the Binding and winding in Ringeck, Lichtenauer are difficult to master because they require much better sense of the sword(feeling), Drey wunder is also somewhat difficult because you need a quick eye to see the slashing cut after the displacement as opposed to a stab or a larger cut with less movement.

I have not spent a great deal of time in Talhoffer, what i have seen is from the 1467 manuel so i am clueless as to the answer to you question.


Jeff

[ChrisThies]

I finally reviewed T's 1443 Fechtbuch.
No 'geschrenkt ortt' of the type I was seeking.

[M Wallgren]

Yes, I am wondering if there exists in T's 1443, (or the text of 1459), any display of hengen or winden.

In combination eith tha name of the tread this confuses me a little bit.

"Geschrenkt ortt" (Cross-wise point) as I understand it is a trust from the right "Ochs". From the left "Ochs" the trust is called "Zorn ortt" (wrathful point). Both can be executed as a followup to an attack or "Versetsen" (sp?) that ends in an "Ochs"

For example. A) do a Oberhau that is counterd by B) with a Zornhau, A) flips the sword over and do a "Sturzhau", alas this lands short and A) follow up with a "Geschrenkt ortt".

I know yhis was a little bit of topic, sorry.

And I have browsed thru the 1443 and I din´t find any plate depicting the technic "geschrenkt ortt"

Cheers...

Martin