Mittelhau mechanics?

[leam hall]

I'm trying to figure out how to do a decent mittlehau. So far everything seems to end up in ochs if I use the long edge and the short edge seems so weak. Anyone got any suggestions on how to practice this? Where do you start from and transition to in the 8 cut?

[Brian Hunt]

Try it from tail.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Jake_Norwood]

It depends on what you mean by "mittelhau." If you're referring to the German stroke of that name, you'll want to cut accross the chest or face (it sounds like you're doing that). The proper follow-up to a mittelhau is another from the other side via zucken ("twitch" or "withdrawal").

But yeah, your ending posiiton if you cut through, don't hit anything, and wish to quickly recover should be ochs.

Note also that if you perform it from the right side the short edge is probably actually stronger, so I wonder how you're perfroming it. (However, if you use the short edge from the right it's a zwerchau...the term "mittelhau" appears in Meyer (is it in Mair, too?), and refers to the long edge from the right and the short from the left, but is otherwise identical to the zwerchau, which is short from the right and long from the left).

Jake

[Jeffrey Hull]

You could try mittlehau by pushing through it somewhat with your arms, much like one does with an unterhau - of course combined with the rest of the body driving the weapon. However, I would say that this may not always prove preferable or feasible. It is something which I have recently been experimenting with to tweak mittlehau, and so I am still unsure how helpful or effective it may be ultimately. I want to do more test cutting with this before I would have stronger opinion either way. JH

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm iffy on all this mittelhau stuff. Not to say that it was never done across the belly or midsection, but find me one place in the german manuals where it isn't aimed at the head or at the hands as they're in vom tag. Or find it anywhere earlier than Meyer for that matter.

Jake

[Shane Smith]

I have found that throwing the mittlehau at shoulder/neck height makes it flow much more smoothly for me in the 8 cut drill. Lower horizontal cuts seem less economical and intuitive. A high mittlehau is readily done from Vom Tag.

[Mike Chidester]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the mittelhau dropped from the 8 cuts some time ago in favor of the zwerchhau?

[david welch]

I'm iffy on all this mittelhau stuff. Not to say that it was never done across the belly or midsection, but find me one place in the german manuals where it isn't aimed at the head or at the hands as they're in vom tag. Or find it anywhere earlier than Meyer for that matter.

And Meyer makes his division of man, his middle, at the armpit. Add to that the bits about cuts going to/through long point, and I believe you have valid evidence for the mittelhau to be aimed from just above or just below the shoulder, ie. either the head or side of the chest. It sure is easier for me to cut there with it.

[Shane Smith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the mittelhau dropped from the 8 cuts some time ago in favor of the zwerchhau?

I learned it back in the HACA days so it is just possible that I'm behind the times on this matter, I having focused on other areas of research.

[Jake_Norwood]

I would rather say that the mittelhau *is* the zwerchau, but with the other edges. Thus the cut wasn't dropped, but what I believe is a largely faulty interpretation thereof.

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

Meyer has two Zwerchaus really, the first is the short edged one and the second is the Uber Mittelhau which is the mittelhau done at the head level like Zwerchau. Essentially a long edge zwerchau.

[Shane Smith]

Hi Jake,
It is true that a zwerch is "a" mittlehau, but I don't think it is "the" mittlehau. Also, how do you support the faulty interpretation theory? I thought that the 8 cut drill was an artificial modern-day construct that allows us to cut along the lines given to us by the Masters in an easily implemented manner. Was this drill interpreted directly from a source-text(I'm not being sarcastic, I am truly incertain)? If not, are you implying that the zwerch is indeed the true mittlehau and that we have interpreted that wrong from the manuals?

[leam hall]

On the other hand if you take the mittlehau from tail as suggested you have a nice soft target in the belly; above the hips and below the ribs. None of those darn'd bones to slow things down and on some of us a fairly substantial target. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

So far I've been doing the 8 cut mittelhau from vom tag with the long edge ending in ochs and then return with the short edge. It's that last bit that really feels useless. When Tim Sheetz and I were working out he said I could get the power thing going well enough. So I'm okay with the long edge bit. It's the return that has me stumped. "Technique, not physique". <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so we're new in the neighborhood and I'm trying things on the back porch in the semi-dark. So far the neighbors haven't called the SWAT guys so I guess the previous occupants were just as odd. Anyway, in the 8 cut I just tried:
From vom tag, step forward and do the mittelhau until it is about 45 degrees past center
Flip the blade over, step forward and swing the long edge again, back in the other direction
Carry the motion back through the tail and swing up for the diagonal unterhau.

That feels okay at first try but as I'm practicing alone in the dark I'm not sure how useful it would be.

[Jake_Norwood]

To Mike:

Meyer has two Zwerchaus really, the first is the short edged one and the second is the Uber Mittelhau which is the mittelhau done at the head level like Zwerchau. Essentially a long edge zwerchau.

Right.

There's the "Mittelhau oder uberzwerchauw" and the "zwerchauw." These are essentially identical, but the "mittel oder..." is long-edge from the right; the zwerch is short.

To Shane:

Hi Jake,
It is true that a zwerch is "a" mittlehau, but I don't think it is "the" mittlehau.

On the contrary, Meyer's the only guy I know of that includes the mittelhau...thus the zwerch is the same as the mittelhau (but with the other edge, as above). Meyer's mittelhau is "the" mittelhau. Now, when it comes to the Italians and their mezzano or however it's called, that's another issue that I don't feel fully qualified to argue one way or another.

Also, how do you support the faulty interpretation theory?

What we called a mittelhau before isn't presented in the german manuals as such. See above.

I thought that the 8 cut drill was an artificial modern-day construct that allows us to cut along the lines given to us by the Masters in an easily implemented manner.

It is a modern construct. Meyer has some similar drills, but not that one per se. Also, he uses the zwerch in it, if I'm not mistaken. Likewise, Meyer presents an "8-line diagram" (segno, if you will), but none of the earlier Liechtenauer guys have anything to say about 8 lines. Nothing. Nada. (But again, there's the Italians...)

If not, are you implying that the zwerch is indeed the true mittlehau and that we have interpreted that wrong from the manuals?

If you mean over the generalized Germanic sources...yes. The zwerch is "it." Meyer has a mittelhau, but once he presents it he largely forgoes it for the zwerchau (which Doebringer calls the best of strikes, IIRC).

On the other hand if you take the mittlehau from tail as suggested you have a nice soft target in the belly; above the hips and below the ribs. None of those darn'd bones to slow things down and on some of us a fairly substantial target.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that you can't throw a horizontal shot at the belly from tail--nor am I saying that "they" never did it. But is wasn't part of the standard menu of attacks. And think about it...when, in sparring, have you *ever* used this shot outside of a sudden window of opportunity...and then, didn't it really end up being an unterhau, since the "old" mittelhau ended in a non-guard or in one that leaves you wide open against an opponent that you're that close to. Cutting lower than the shoulders loses a tremendous amount of range as well, which Liechtenauer specifically warns against with all lower cuts.

To Leam:

So far I've been doing the 8 cut mittelhau from vom tag with the long edge ending in ochs and then return with the short edge. It's that last bit that really feels useless. When Tim Sheetz and I were working out he said I could get the power thing going well enough. So I'm okay with the long edge bit. It's the return that has me stumped. "Technique, not physique".

Instead of cutting straight back with the short edge, twitch around the head, like a helicopter, and deliver a stroke from the left with the short edge. Instead of envisioning that first mittelhau missing and landing in a guard, imagine it hitting, failing to cut his head in half like you want it to, and bringing it around to finish the job on the other side with the other edge. That's how the zwerch (and the mittelhau) work in the manuals.

Anyway, in the 8 cut I just tried:
From vom tag, step forward and do the mittelhau until it is about 45 degrees past center
Flip the blade over, step forward and swing the long edge again, back in the other direction
Carry the motion back through the tail and swing up for the diagonal unterhau.

That feels okay at first try but as I'm practicing alone in the dark I'm not sure how useful it would be.

Even "combinations" that I don't plan to use have value in practice--they develop coordination, etc. But I'm iffy about using that in a fight. Try it, let us know how it goes.

Jake

[M Wallgren]

Maybe this isn´t relevant here, but there is a quite effectiv way to throw a "low Mittelhau" if one insist to do it.

Let Your pommel almost make contact with your hip on the right side in the tail guard. Turn your hip like you would do a roundhouse kick but with the sword instead of the leg. let your hands press down a little bit to force the sword to stay in the stomach area.

This is a technic way I adopted from Iaido so it is done with the long edge but in addition you could go back again verey fast with the short edge in the same way.

But as I said it´s not a manual instruction, just something I brought with me from the Iaido but is works in sparring and If ones goal is to be a good swordfighter it´s a good trick to have in the bag.

Cheers

Martin