On Blade Gripping

[Dan Green]

I was reading Talhoffer Longsword: Armoured and Unarmoured and was very intrested by the use of half-swording and morte-striking against plate-armored opponents. However, how would a swordsman protect his hands from being cut? I'm not exactly experienced and haven't tried it, but using such techniques against hard armor seems more dangerous.

[Allen Johnson]

There are people much more qualified than me that could answer the question but I think I can help. Many people are misled in thinking that swords are "razor sharp". They aren't - razors are...hence the assosiation. For a sword to be that sharp you must grind it down to a very thin, fine edge- one that would be horribly chipped and marred if striking at hard and even semi hard targets. Longswords were sharp but not sharp enough the you could not grip the blade. However, if you do have a really tight grip on your blade and someone were to sieze it and yank it from your hands, you might recieve a cut from that yanking motion. It might seem that these swords are more blunted than you would think they would be but they are still quite capable of devastating cuts. There is a great video of John Clements cutting through a rolled up reed mat several inches thick. He shows the edge isnt "razor sharp" by drawing the sword back and forth across his hand and arm with no injury at all. (see video here: http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm - the first two). Also its not uncommon to have the upper half of the blade more sharp than the lower portion as it nears the ricasso. I have a longsword in which the blade is a rectangle for the first 4-5 inches or so just below the hilt. Hope this sheds some light. If not other will soon respond <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Zach Palfreyman]

You can push your hand against even a razor blade and not get cut, as long as you don't draw it across your skin. Its the slashing motion that will cut you, not simply pushing on it. So like Allen said, you are only really at risk of getting cut if someone is jerking on your sword hard enough that it is moving in your grip. Second, from how I've been shown to hold the blade, it would be even harder to cut yourself because all the pressure is placed on the flat of the blade. You don't want to just grab onto it like a baseball bat, your thumb should be pointed the same direction as your fingers instead of wrapping around the other way. And lastly I know of at least two people who have tried halfswording with sharp blades and were purposefully rough with them just to see if they would get cut doing those moves. And they didn't get cut, so there it is.

[M Wallgren]

Well, when I last looked upon the 1467 plates they didn´t hold the blade in that way. And when I tried to do a mortschlag with an Albion Next generation regent I didn´t cut myself or even felt near to do it. And I was swingin´away onto a tareget of hard backed clothes in a army bag. Full force full speed...

It´s all down to what kind of blade you got on the sword you try to halfsword. A broadbladed balttlesword from the early 14th century as the Albion Baron or Duke is NOT something I would even consider to halfsword. Just take a quick look at the sword you plan on using halfswording technics with, If it is pointy and narrow (icepickshaped) and dont flex to much (should feel rather stif) go ahead, If it is broad and spatulated (screems to you -"cut with me cut with me") don´t halfsword.

Just my experience and two cents.

Martin

[Dan Green]

I know swords wouldn't even have to be sharp in the lower regions since, well, cutting with that part wouldn't be too effective anyways. In the plates displaying morte-striking, though, the swordsman has his hand grasping the upper area of the blade. While it could still not be sharp enough to truly endanger a soldier, I was wondering what would happen if the swordsman perhaps attempted to punch with the pommel and missed, striking metal (thus causing the hands to slide against the blade). This problem could even be worsened if a blade widened towards the point, further aiding the hand-slicing.

Though, of course, I do suppose that is of little significance. I've never even seen anyone try to fight with slashed hands, but I guess it's a minor injury worth the trouble.

Well, thanks for the information everyone.

[Jeffrey Hull]

DG

That is pertinent to the focus of the article: that despite however unarmoured be the fencers in the pictures, half of the techniques portrayed bespeak use for armoured combat. Thus one may imagine that said techniques would have been done with full harness, including some sort of leather gloves or perhaps leather-palmed half-gauntlets.

Combine that with the presumption that the fencers portrayed are most likely sparring with blunts in their practice hall, then the lack of gloves becomes a non-issue, as does the lack of armour, in the portrayals.

Why is this likely? Again, as per the focus of the article, it is the nature of the technique(s) that dictates whether it is blosz or harnisch. I hope that makes sense.

JH

[Ryan Ricks]

john clements once did a demonstration with my arming sword, showing how you can grab a sharp blade without being cut.

he grabbed the blade near the middle, but a little closer to the point. then he told me to grab the hilt and pull on the blade as hard as i could.

i didn't jerk the blade violently, but pulled steadily as hard as i could. he had a tight grip, so the blade did not slide in his hand and he was not cut.

then he proceeded to sever a limb which was about 1" in diameter from a tree. it was some kind of hardwood, not a pine tree

ryan

[Shane Smith]

A leather-palmed gauntlet is fine protection from a sharp edge during halfswording. I have tested this on several occasions and it is readily done. Just keep a firm grasp as mentioned above!

[David Kite]

JH:

I'm not sure I agree that the weapons are training blunts. There are numerous plates throughout the 1467 edition portraying the fighters being thrust through. There's also the plate in the Messer section of one having his hand cut off and a couple of plates with the head being hewn into.

Portrayal of the judicial combat also leads me to assume the book doesn't portray practice.

Of course, that's all IMO. If you have a counter-argument to disprove mine, I'm all ears.

David Kite
GFS, ARMA in IN

[JeffGentry]

I'm not sure I agree that the weapons are training blunts

I tend to agree, There are a few account's of "play" match's with peolpe having there head's cut open and such, I don't think safety was as high on there list of priorites as it is now.

Read this article about a French knight who went on a traveling fighting adventure around Europe.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm


Jeff

[Casper Bradak]

I just skimmed through, but I didn't notice it mentioned, but it's best to grip the blade in a particular way. It's not a regular all around grip, but a grip on the flats, without exerting pressure on the edges (though, of course, you could argue interpretation). Even falchions are used with certain half swording techniques, and the blades don't get much wider than those.

[M Wallgren]

I will again refer to my old post Mortschlag. http://www.thearma.org//forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=openresearch&amp;Number=12522&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1
As you can read there I did not use a "Monkey grip" but a full grip around the blade. And again it is a question of how the blade is made. Se above. So if I would try to grip a Falchion i would use your interpretation, but not when I use a sword of the type depicted in Talhoffers manuals.

Martin

[Joachim Nilsson]

I have yet to see a fechtbuch picture that does not utilize a regular all round grip. Are you referring to a "fisted" grip around the blade or a "monkey grip" (where you have the thumb on the same side as the rest of your fingers)? Because it is the latter which I have never seen...

[Casper Bradak]

You can grip it any way you want, there's no doubt about that. I didn't say how to grip it, just that I don't exert much pressure on the edges.

[Casper Bradak]

I have yet to see a fechtbuch picture that does not utilize a regular all round grip. Are you referring to a "fisted" grip around the blade or a "monkey grip" (where you have the thumb on the same side as the rest of your fingers)? Because it is the latter which I have never seen..

The thumbless grip is shown in some falchion half-swording techniques, and is easily seen.
For tapering blades, the thumb is normally shown used. Those are the easiest ways with each blade type, of course. That doesn't mean they're pressing their fingers into the edges. I prefer not to. But like I said, it's interpretation and you can do whatever works for you. I've had a finger notched by pressing into an edge inside the joint. I guess I sounded dogmatic (sounding like that's a big pet peeve of mine with this stuff).