Rear naked choke?

[Ray_McCullough]

In Vadi's fechtbuch, picture 35, top left. Is this a "rear naked choke" from a standing postion?

[Randall Pleasant]

Ray

No, it is not "rear naked choke". Vali says, "You'll soon find yourself on the ground". Instead of performing a choke the man has stepped with his right leg behind the adversary's right leg and is in the process of throwing the adversary backwards. Because the adversary's dagger is not secured we must assume that this throw must be performed very quick and very hard so that the adversary cannot make a stab at the leg. Personally I would never use a rear nake choke against a dagger since in the 3 or 4 seconds it takes to put a person down they can do a lot of damage with a dagger.

[Ray_McCullough]

Thanks Randall

I didn't notice the dagger. The rear naked choke definently has very limited use on the battlefield.

Thanks

[Jake_Norwood]

Against an opponent with a knife, yes, but on the current "battlefield" it's proven to be one of the most successful moves. But that's against a modern, unarmed opponent; the medieval or renaissance battlefield would be another issue entirely.

I have a story about that, actually. On one recent occassion another US Soldier, unhappy with me, attacked me from behind and put me in a rear naked choke. As I was completely unprepared for the experience the choke was fully locked in and I started to see spots.

So I pulled out my one-hand-open pocket knife, flipped it open, and raised it to stab him in the leg (our commander actually encourages that sort of thing...I probably would have been commended for stabbing this soldier in the leg...the re-assigned to the infantry, hah). The soldier saw me raise the knife (I did it slow to give him that opportunity) and he relased me.

Yup, a knife changes the most proven, effective empty-handed move on the modern battlefield into a liability.

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

well i wouldn't say that the RNC is the most effective proven unarmed technique for the battlefield, i would say that would have to be bashing someones head in.

i think you forgot something Jake, what would have happened if the man on your back had a knife also. RNC can be used to get a 3 point tie up for either striking or stabbing so it can go both ways.

[G.MatthewWebb]

Jake Norwood wrote: "On one recent occassion another US Soldier, unhappy with me, attacked me from behind and put me in a rear naked choke."

Yikes Jake! <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />
You usually play well with others. <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />
Sounds like fragging. Watch out for grenades rolling into your tent or sleeping quarters next. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Matthew Webb
Oklahoma City, OK
USA

[Jay Vail]

Once, long ago, I had a kid put me in a naked choke on a bus. I grabbed him by the hair, pulled his face close to mine and stuck him in the eye with my fingers. He let go. I'm not impressed by the naked choke. It is widely over rated.

[Jay Vail]

a knife changes the most proven, effective empty-handed move on the modern battlefield into a liability.

so true.

[Jeremy Martin]

"i think you forgot something Jake, what would have happened if the man on your back had a knife also. RNC can be used to get a 3 point tie up for either striking or stabbing so it can go both ways."

Then I don't think I would consider it an 'open handed' technique. Thats just me though.

I'm familliar with the term, but could anyone describe the RNC exactly to me? Just having trouble putting the term together with the actual movements. Thanks.

[TimSheetz]

When I got taught that, I was told to put my head down so I couldn't get poked in the eyes.

Peace,

Tim

[Mike Cartier]

I had a kid put me in a naked choke on a bus. I grabbed him by the hair, pulled his face close to mine and stuck him in the eye with my fingers

That was not a proper RNC then, a real RNC takes about 2 seconds to lock onto your artery and cut off blood to the brain. Its not a trachial choke which leaves way too much time for someone to react. A good RNC would have had you seeing stars by the time you grabbed his hair.

I certainly think it is not over rated at all, its one of the best methods for a small man to bring down a large man. Just because if they have a knife its not as effective means nothing. If you have a knife and we box it will not go well for me either. In fact most martial arts techniques will not be as effective if the other guy is armed with a weapon or its a multiple opponent scenario.

The RNC is evidenced since Antiquity with the Greek and Romans. Back then it was known as the Ladder trick. I think its highly effective, can finish an opponent of any size in seconds, and by finish i mean completly incapacitate. Its also quite useful for bringing down and controlling a friend who is going nuts without hurting them. i have seen the RNC used several times in fights and it usually takes out the person involved in under 2 seconds if done right.

[Mike Cartier]

Then I don't think I would consider it an 'open handed' technique. Thats just me though.

Why must it be open handed? I mean i can hit you with my open hand but i would rather use my fist <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Some people get really angry if you slap them.

I'm familliar with the term, but could anyone describe the RNC exactly to me? Just having trouble putting the term together with the actual movements. Thanks.

You get on a mans back and wrap your legs around his hips and entwine them inside his legs and behind his knees. Known as putting in the hooks. I myself prefer a body triangle to this, that is putting one foot across the fellows belly andoverhooking it with my knee. Creates alot of pressure on thier diaphram and holds you fast to the back.

Place one arm around his head and in front of his throat, all the way to the elbow as deep as you can. Then put the hand of that arm on your other bicep and bend that elbow until you can almost touch your head. Tighten it up then take a deep breath and expand your rib cage.

[TimSheetz]

HI Mike,

You describe this:"I myself prefer a body triangle to this, that is putting one foot across the fellows belly andoverhooking it with my knee. Creates alot of pressure on thier diaphram and holds you fast to the back."

I am not a formally trained grappler so bear with me, here... does that put your foot fairly high? If your opponent knew his stuff, couldn't he ruin your day with some sort of toe or foot lock? Again, this question is not from personal experience, just from reading...

Thanks,

Tim

[Mike Cartier]

Hi Tim

I am not a formally trained grappler so bear with me, here... does that put your foot fairly high? If your opponent knew his stuff, couldn't he ruin your day with some sort of toe or foot lock? Again, this question is not from personal experience, just from reading..

Well there is a very painful traingle footlock that can break the ankles that can be done when the opponent puts the hooks in incorrectly (with ankles crossed) but from the body triangle position there is not much that can be done to your feet to hurt you. In fact thats one of the things you want someone to do when you are applying a RNC, mess with your feet while you are going for the choke.
becase then they are not stopping your hands from applying the choke and tightening the position.

The steps for avoiding the RNC are, stop the choke and if possible prevent the putting in of the hooks or preparation to remove hooks if they are already in. You stop the choke by grabbing a hand to buy the time to mess with the feet or hooks. Once you free yourself up enough you turn towards the opponent breaking the back mount position.

only problem with the body triangle is folks with big bellies. You shouldn't be fighting with people who have big bellies anyways as they are very dangerous due to the advanced beer drinking skills they posess. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jay Vail]

Its not a trachial choke which leaves way too much time for someone to react. A good RNC would have had you seeing stars by the time you grabbed his hair.

Then we are not talking about the same thing. In judo, the naked choke is a trachial choke which relies upon pressure by the forearm against the trachia. It is a common method of subduing an adversary and often works quite well if he is unable to employ his hands against the attacker.

I can imagine what you mean when you say "rear naked choke" but given the imprecision of language and the lack of standardized vocabulary, I can't be sure. Is this the one where your R arm goes around his neck, your R hand is in then placed in the crook of your L arm at the elbow and your L hand then cups behind his neck and presses forward?

If that's your rear naked choke it can be broken by pushing up the attacker's R elbow and bringing your chin down into the crook of his arm. Then go for the fingers of his left hand or his right hand, and if you can't get hold of them, let him talk to your elbow. Biting is also a good way to get out of this.

Also, I have been choked out with lapel strangles more than once, which are very similar to what you are describing, and it takes longer than 2 seconds to set. I have had guys clamp down on me with a really solid lapel choke and have escaped from it even after it was locked on.

The real reason chokes work is that most people aren't sufficiently trained in how to break them, or they are in a position in which they cannot move effectively.