Disagreement with Old Manual

Old Archived Discussions on Specific Passages from Medieval & Renaissance Fencing Texts


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Jeffrey Hull
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Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sat Apr 05, 2003 5:26 pm

Hello Fellows:

I am making a new post to clearly express views, as first put forth in response to a post in this area called: “Incredible statement about cutting in Mc Bane”. Please refer to that for the background, if you would. Again, my apologies for not posting my stance on the subject correctly there the first time, it was my foolish failure of communication. I only hope that you shall read my amending thereof, and this post of course, that you might know my true intent.

I simply do not accept each and every thing asserted in each and every fighting-manual. This is the case with the specific advice by McBane regarding small-sword & cloak versus sword & targe. I find myself unwilling to think it right. I do not question McBane's reputation and credentials; he must have been quite accomplished. I simply disagree with the specific tactic he describes. Whether anyone [censored] my viewpoint is not my care. Please consider the following.

Should the sword & targe man (ST) await patiently the small-sword & cloak man (SSC) to wrap the off-arm in cloak and/or set wet napkin under hat? Should ST be expected to block his view of the fray & foe, sunken behind his targe, rather than lashing out with its rim, using it dynamically and deceptively in tandem with his sword, not unlike Walpurgis (MS I.33)? Should ST be expected not to punch his targe at SSC, to harry him therewith, or even to throw it at SSC? What if ST flings his targe aside, either to try to grab the small-sword of SSC with the off-hand and hew (not slice) SSC open with the sword in his other hand, or to draw his dirk alongside his sword to make now a two-weapon attack upon SSC? McBane seems to make it all so simple, whereas say Ringeck tends to describe a complexity of attack-counter-attack, and relates the permutations of danger more fully, in regards to an albeit different paradigm (long-sword versus long-sword).

I would advise a man to learn sword or sword & targe, rather than trying to convince him to rely upon small-sword & cloak, when dealing with the disparity of a match of civilian-weaponry versus battle-weaponry. I imagine that someone like Silver might agree with my mindset in this regard.

None of us can claim to have witnessed the deadly fighting of the old masters ourselves – and doubtless at least some deserved the title. We can only make up our minds from the teachings they have bequeathed as to whether none, some, most, or all of said teachings are helpful to the fighter, and can do our best to reckon this by our own research, experience, instinct, and sparring.

I think that McBane’s advice in this instance was meant to appease and persuade elitist cosmopolitan fencers; was meant to dismiss the poor-man’s rural and archaic martiality; was meant to make the advisor seem clever; and was frankly faulty and unsound.

That is what I think. Ultimately, I must trust myself, and not anyone else, for I am the one who ultimately must fight for himself. Thank you for considering my words.

Gang Warily!

Jeffrey Hull
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Sat Apr 05, 2003 8:09 pm

Jeff,

I agree with you and your insight is well taken. I too do not accept everything in the manuals because certain techniques just do not seem to work for me. I think every person is different with different skills and different attributes.

I've said this before in the old forum but will say it again...you can take 2 people, each with different weapon and defense system such as the ST and SSC. Have them fight 10 times and each time the out come will, IMO, will be different. A small sword is a vicious tool and as Tim said a cutlass/broad sword etc., will powder the bone of a person's arm.

There are books on technique written today, such as EMA, that are just plain wrong (as it appears to me) because the author pushes his/her opion as a fact saying "THIS IS HOW IT IS DONE". I'm not talking about any WMA authors, just authors in general. There is nothing saying that it didn't happen as well in the medieval and renissance periods.

Just my 7 cents <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Tony_Indurante
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Tony_Indurante » Sun Apr 06, 2003 2:18 am

My post in that thread was only to add another data point. Here is a totally different manual, written a hundred + years earlier, using a similar tactic (cloak as defense) vs a cutting attack. I think that the best "proof" of the effectiveness of a technique is how often it is repeated throughout not only manuals of its own time, but also in those written before or after.
Anthony Indurante

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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Sun Apr 06, 2003 8:21 am

Jeffrey, I do not understand:
"Whether anyone [censored] my viewpoint is not my care."
Please do not call me Mr Parisi, makes me feel an elderly gentleman, call me Carlo.
The most incredible statement in Mc Bane is that you can take forty cuts and not be disabled, I said it's incredible because I do not believe it <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
I will not comment his improvised armor for small sword against broad and targe (wet napkin), if not saying that, if you do not have water nearby, than you have to produce your own and putting an hand under the kilt in front of an armed opponent is not the best way to introduce yourself <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> because what he'll see wil make him think you're really scared.
No, serious, maybe his was the best advice he could give to anyone confronted by sword and targe when armed only with the small sword, and that he stated it's more effective than actually it is supposed to be, to give his fellows some self confidence in a unhappy situation.

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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Sun Apr 06, 2003 9:20 am

The most incredible statement in Mc Bane is that you can take forty cuts and not be disabled, I said it's incredible because I do not believe it


I agree, I don't agree with McBane. They did not have modern medicine back then and infection was a killer.

Guest

Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Sun Apr 06, 2003 10:23 am

Ehi, I've got an insight: what if Mc Bane actually meant that in the course of your life you can take 40 cuts and not be rendered infirm parmanently by none of them?
Sure it's improbable but it is a remote possibility that you get wounded by many cuts in many separated fights and do not suffer any permanent crippling damage by those cuts.
Tim rightly pointed out that not all thrusts are lethal, and Mc Bane probably meant: " with a proper torso or face hit "-"the small sword kills" and " in the course of your life "- "you can take 40 cuts and not be disabled"- " If none of them causes permanent injury and all of them heal ".

While I refuse the authority principle in logic, I'm willing to accept it in history and, as Stuwart tells us, it's better to try to find a reason for the things asserted in the manuals than to reject them completely. In this particular case maybe an interpretation exists that renders an incredible statement an improbable one that merely expresses a fact that is located in the extremity of the spectrum of the possible outcomes of a life of fights.

Stuart McDermid
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Stuart McDermid » Sun Apr 06, 2003 6:02 pm

Hi All,

I agree with Tony.
Finding the same move in manuals 100s of years apart is one of the thrills I get from studying fencing manuals. There is nothing like telling someone that a technique appears in Talhoffer 1467, Marozzo 1536 and Applegate 1942 in an almost identical fashion for example. Having done a little rapier and cloak, you can take a shot with your cloak BELOW the arm and expect it to remove almost all the string from the blow.

Carlo may have something there, certainly something I had never thought of. Despite the stopping power of a cut and it's potential to cause a disabling wound, it is IMHO less likely to cause a fatal
one. The difference between stopping power and lethality is an important and oft overlooked IMHO.
Cheers,
Stu.

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John_Clements
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby John_Clements » Mon Apr 07, 2003 12:18 pm

This is an intriguing area of study. I try to address this issue of cuts and thrusts and lethality at length in my new book, citing Silver, Hope, McBane, and many other sources combined with forensic material. I believe the human body can indeed take many lacerations and flesh wounds by cut and survive. But I also believe powerful cutting blows are immediately lethal. I also believe that the human body can survive puncture wounds (even clean through in some instances) and keep fighting, provided they are not immediately lethal to the vital areas (such as the brain). But I also believe that single thrusts did and do kill when they hit effectively. The historical accounts support all these beliefs and I don’t see them as contradictory, rather as situational. I can understand the writers having different views based on their own periods of experience. The question for us modern students is, as Stu rightly said, determining was is a good hit versus what is an incapacitating wound.

JC
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 08, 2003 8:40 am

Hello,
John the body of knowledge possessed by medicine is an important factor in determining what's lethal, in my opinion.
Descartes still believed that the heart was necessary for the pourpose of warming blood, not pumping it, William Harvey discovered the blood circle if I remember correctly (I was there, you know <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). Very little was known about the role of various internal organs, even less about what to do when they got damaged. Cuts, if delivered to the extremities could be treated with bondages, or at worst amputation of the limb, if they did not get infected; broken bones could heal, some arteries could be closed if severed, if the surgeon had the right attributes <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> .
Piercing wounds would cause internal bleeding, but no one knew what to do with it, so even if it was slow... And they would cause infection with the resulting fever this latter being "remedied" with leeches as long as I know (I was there but I'm not ubuquitous <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), helping the draing process of the wounded who already had internal bleeding.

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ChrisThies
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby ChrisThies » Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:40 pm

JC - The following is a quote/footnote which may be of interest to you per lethality of historical/documented wounds, etc. [The title/author of the 1881 French book the following is from is being withheld account material is not appropriate for younger/more impressionable minds, but I will say that it is listed in the "Gerretsen Catalogue" list (a notable collection of works relating to 'Women's Studies' currently owned/held by KU).]

1881 BOOK (which is NOT recommended as the source material), "In former days the wounds made by the sword, the arme blanche, were clean and healthy; Fleurange in one battle * received forty-six, and speadily recovered."

FOOTNOTE which MAY be of interest/citeable: " * And subsequently was found the young adventurer (Fleurange) among the dead; who was not at first recognized, for he had forty-six very large wounds, whereof the smallest took six weeks to heal. And when his father had found him, he put him on the horse of a camp-girl of lansquenets who was found there; and so had him brought along with the troops.' - Fleurange, Memoirs, ch. XXXVII, year 1513"
{Good fencers make good neighbors}
Christopher Thies

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Matt Easton
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Matt Easton » Fri May 16, 2003 10:13 am

"Descartes still believed that the heart was necessary for the pourpose of warming blood, not pumping it, William Harvey discovered the blood circle if I remember correctly"

Although Leonardo da Vinci clearly knew the heart was for pumping blood and drew illustrations of the arterial system.

"Cuts, if delivered to the extremities could be treated with bondages"

<img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I never thought of bondage as a cure for a cut, but now I'll have to try it! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Matt

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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Fri May 16, 2003 10:40 am

I meant "bandages" <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />
but that's not the worst, once I wrote: "cut and TRUST sword", so to combine them: if I cut someone I'll trust bondages as a cure, at least he'll stay on the bed!! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Ciao
Carlo

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Matt Easton
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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Matt Easton » Fri May 16, 2003 1:09 pm

Heheh - Carlo it caused me much amusement on a boring Friday afternoon at work <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
I hate to think what I might say if I even *tried* to post in Italian.. Your English is exceptional.
I can't comment on your bedroom preferences though! Later,

Matt

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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 04, 2003 5:36 pm

hi Folks,

In "Fights for the Flag" there is a description of two British pickets on a bridge being attacked by a group of French Hussars (1808 in the Penninsular). They were slashed about for some time before the Hussars where driven off by the relief. One man recieved 26 cuts and the other 17 cuts, both counted afterwards. Not one cut drew blood. All landed on bits of equipment or the musket or shako, lucky bastards!

Effective cutting uh!
yours

Col

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Re: Disagreement with Old Manual

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 04, 2003 6:52 pm

Colin, I somehow feel this has to do with the weight of the swords. Maybe I'm wrong but cutting with knives gave me the impression that a cut needs a very fast blade movement, so if your sword is heavier than what you can swing very fast...
Mc Bane insisted in promoting spadroons for their light weight, he said you can cut well with them, maybe those hussars would have made a better job with a light dragon sabre than with the massive sabres of the Napoleon army.
Carlo


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