Discussion question...

Old Archived Discussions on Specific Passages from Medieval & Renaissance Fencing Texts


Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Discussion question...

Postby John_Clements » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:07 pm

As a hypothetical to consider, imagine for instance never having seen any real combat effective karate, kung fu, or jujitsu, but only seeing sport judo and Olympic tae kwon do games...then stumbling across 500 year old manuals on these old arts. Could we really rebuild and reconstruct them as real fighting systems? Could we do it without emphasizing realistic training and without intense long-term practice? Are we in a sense, doing this very thing with Renaissance martial arts now?

Thoughts, comments?
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

User avatar
TimSheetz
Posts: 412
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:55 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Discussion question...

Postby TimSheetz » Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:17 pm

"Could we really rebuild and reconstruct them as real fighting systems? "

Depending on what you mean by "Real". If you mean combat effective techniques based closely on the historical sources, then YES. If you mean exactly what they taught, 100% 'for real".. then their is no way to verify without time travel.

***************************************

"Could we do it without emphasizing realistic training and without intense long-term practice? "

Absolutely NOT. The 'forge of strife' is the test for the techniques, against people who are not cooperative. Success against skilled, truly opposing individuals is the litmus test for effective combatives.

***************************

"Are we in a sense, doing this very thing with Renaissance martial arts now?"

Yes.
Tim Sheetz
ARMA SFS

Stuart McDermid
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:48 pm

Re: Discussion question...

Postby Stuart McDermid » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:58 pm

Hi John,

Good topic. I haven't all that much to add except to say that lumping Sport Judo in with Tae Kwon Do is a little unfair.

Olympic TKD is IMHO an absolute disgrace and should be ejected from the olympics in favour of pankration.

Sport Judo on the other hand is a VERY different animal. These guys have an intricate knowledge of body mechanics and breaking balance (the hard bit ) and their high level kata contain basic striking methods (the easy bit).

Personally I think a Sport Judo background is an excellent way to approach systems like Fiore which are based on wrestling just as a modern/classical fencing and/or JSA swordplay background is best for weapons that concentrate mostly on the sword like Vadi or Ringeck.
Cheers,
Stu.

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Re: Discussion question...

Postby John_Clements » Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:01 pm

Yes, I agree, Stuart. Sport Judo is different from what I've heard. Many Judoka have more time on the mat in applying their techniques adversarialy than do many jujutsu practitioners, from what I understand. But, you get the point of my meaning, I'm sure.

JC
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

User avatar
Gene Tausk
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:37 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Discussion question...

Postby Gene Tausk » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:39 am

I think the answer is yes, they could definitely be reconstructed. However, the only way to reconstruct them as actual fighting systems is to emphasize realistic training and long term practice. I can't think of any other way to do so, unless you just want to play around and live in fantasyland.

I think also that "realistic training" would also include sparring. Since we are talking about "reconstructing" taekwondo and judo here in your hypothetical scenario, sparring would mean full contact sparring in both arts.

----->>>>>>>>gene
------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk
Free-Scholar
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
ARMA Forum Moderator

User avatar
Gene Tausk
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:37 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Discussion question...

Postby Gene Tausk » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:49 am

Stuart:

I disagree vociferously with your comment that Olympic TKD is an "absolute disgrace." It is a full-contact martial sport, in the same way that boxing is a full contact martial sport not to mention wrestling and judo. As such, full-contact TKD players learn quickly the proper elements of fighting such as distance, timing technique, perception and the will to continue.

It is definitely possible to get injured or to cause injury in Olympic style TKD (having done both myself) and Olympic players are true combatants. If I had to go into a dark situation and could choose between the karate guy, the kung fu guy and the Olympic TKD guy, the choice would be obvious. I would KNOW that the Olympic TKD guy actually knew how to fight. Of course, he is fighting in a certain "style," just like most martial arts practioners are fighting in a style, but he still knows how to fight.

It goes without saying, of course, that Judo is an excellent way to approach systems that are based on grappling...because Judo is based on grappling! It is also true to say that GR or Freestyle wrestling or Sambo is a good way to approach systems that are based on grappling for the same reason.

Incidentally, your comment that striking is the "easy bit?" As compared to what? Striking an opponent who does not want to be hit is not that easy, otherwise, people would not shell out big $$$ for boxing matches.

Of course pankration would be a nice addition to the Olympic games. So would the introduction of sambo. I don't see either happening in the near future.


------->>>>>>>>>gene
------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk

Free-Scholar

Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

ARMA Forum Moderator

Guest

Re: Discussion question...

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:08 am

Did not understand the qeustion truly.
But a tought

I read in a magasine with an artikel of Knigtlyhood
(Bad translation)
If a boy never had seen "his own blood driping or feelt his teach crack from a blow from the opponent" he never would be able to go to real war with hope of surviving.

What says that fiori and all the other manual are the true fight. Mayby they were more about the "art" then the "martial" because they did a manual about the subject rather then die in battle.
Where they ever in real battle??
OR is it that they where so good that they survived so long that they could do a manual about the subject.

where pepole just as individual then as they are know??
The answer is Yes

what was the accurat tekniks or "real renaissance fighting" then??

Do we need to fight to learn how to fight??
Or can we practise figthing without accually fighting??

In tkd, judo and others you have rules and can say, I give up!! whitout beeing killed or captuerd?!. So they are never in a "real" fight.

Most asian martialarts didn´t become "arts" until there where forbidden to be praktist, as in Japan and kina. when maritalart where used in the era when it acctuallay was war. The soliders often was theacht only the fundamental of fighting and then they where often "tought" on the battlefield by own experiense. When figthing becomes tekniks, is when there are no own hand to hand experiense of fighting. As they say "when you have learned the teknik you should pick it apart". Look at kravmaga or ross it takes 1 week to learn the principals. they are modern made martialart used for war.

Guest

Re: Discussion question...

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:46 am

I agree with Tim in saying that if we want a 100% inclusive fighting method, we aren't going to find it. Heck, even if we did have a time machine, the best we could do is *maybe* get 100% of a single person's methods, but the differences of each person and master could never be put into a "compleate style" that or a "whole system." The problem is that believing that we could ever know all that would be needed to know to fight well, is a limiter. If we say "this is the style, and there are no other options without devaiting from this style" then we either must accept it and not learn things, or we must now deviate from the "pure style" and go learn new things (perhaps learn them spontaniously through personal experience, even.) I do not believe every student of Liechtenauer's fought just aa he did, nor any student of any master intentionally limit himself to what only one person said. These masters also had to learn to fight themselves, and who are we to say that they learned exclusively from one teacher all that they knew?

Yet at the same time, this brings a question to my mind.
Can we gain a true understanding and demonstrable knowledge of an old fighting art by studying a modern one? In the theoretical example above- I find this 500 year old book, and I want to study it. Should I go study modern judo to understand this ancient (lets say just for specualtion) grappling art?

I must say no, but that we must study the old art itself to gain this understanding and viable use of it. If I want to learn about candles, I could study light bulbs, but wouldn't it only make sence to study the candle instead?

I feel the same way when it comes HEMA. Studying later periods of fencing will not teach you earlier ones.
I am not saying "do not study later periods of fencing!"
I am not saying "you will gain no insight from studying later periods of fancing!"
and I am not saying "Modern fighting arts are worthless!"

I am saying "If you want to learn Judo, study Judo, if you want to learn the rapier, study the rapier, if you want to learn the longsword, study the longsword"

User avatar
Jeffrey Hull
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:40 pm
Location: USA

Re: Discussion question...Jujitsu

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:06 pm

Hey Guys:

I can tell you that the Bushikan Jujitsu in which I trained was really no different than Kampfringen. It was a serious, straightforward system in the high Japanese warrior tradition. It was intense, martial, and meant to teach deadly response to deadly assault. The system had a full integration of a variety of weaponry, using the unarmed fighting as the base for the armed.

When we did any Judo, we spoke of it as "playing Judo", something which was meant for warming-up before the more maritally serious Jujitsu workout to follow. I would add that Bushikan shares nothing in common spiritually with the gladiatorially perverse Brazillian form, so popular of late.

Please be careful to realize the distinct forms of "ju"-based arts and ways. Some are certainly more traditional and martial than others, and some are, I think, more worthwhile.

Good luck! JH
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

User avatar
John_Clements
Posts: 1167
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 10:43 pm
Location: Atlanta area

Re: Discussion question...Jujitsu

Postby John_Clements » Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:25 pm

Please keep this thread on the topic question everyone, no digressing into debates on Asian martial sports or fighting arts. Thanks.

JC
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

User avatar
Brian Hunt
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 2:03 am
Location: Price, Utah
Contact:

Re: Discussion question...Jujitsu

Postby Brian Hunt » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:55 pm

Hi John,

That is an interesting question you have introduced. I would have to say that if we were trying to recreate an asian martial art from a hypothetical 500 year old instruction book that we could not fully reconstruct the fighting art represented by the book. I do feel that we would be able to come extremely close, maybe even be exact, in the recreation of the techniqes, but the rub lies elsewhere, not in the forms.

The real problem is the cultural and socialogical barriers that time has created. No matter how much we study history books, and the writings of the times we cannot truly understand a 500 year old culture as our own. A fighting art represents, not only a way of using oneself for martial activities, but the way it is taught and integrated into society is frequently driven by the social and cultural implications involved at the time period and regional location where the instruction is being recieved or given.

As an example, just look at how the public's view of fencing schools changed over time in England. At one time there were fence schools in great abundance and a thriving business, but in 1180 AD were legistlativly banned from London. Later iin 1285 Kind Edward I also took up legislation to further prohibit them in London which described the problem as "Foreasmuch as fools who delight in mischief, do learn to fence with buckler, and thereby are the more encouraged to commit their follies, . . . " This type of legislation, probably due to social problems enjoined by crimes of violence, were enough to send the schools underground. So while in probable favor publicly at one time, they then fell into public disfavor over time. The stigma of which appears to have stayed with them even after Henry VIII allowed them to once again openly practice their trade. (Source for this information comes from Terry Brown's "English Martial Arts" -- always give credit where credit is due. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Time does not only change culture and social opinions, but it changes language as well. Just look what fifty years have done to the english language in the United States. 500 years has a much greater impact - especially due to the lack of a true dictionary existing from or during that time period. So a lot of what we read or study may be only conjecture based upon our own cultural biases traveling through our own social filters. This is the great struggle that anthropologists face on a daily basis.

Conversly we have similar problems with the study of the manuscripts that we have from Europe. I think that some of the cultural problems are not as extreme for a person of european descent trying to travel back through the mists of time as it would be for that same european personage to do so for an asian culture. But time still creates many barriers. I feel that we can reintroduce a powerful representation of what is contained in these books that is martially sound and whole in and of itself, but we will never recreate an exact duplicate due to the ravages of time and the changes thereby created. The only way for us to do that would be for the world as we know to suddenly become exactly as the time period and location where the manual we are studing came from and for us to perfectly fit into the molds of that time.

However, an extremly close reproduction that fits my time and my cultural norms will be wonderful to me, and I will be extremely grateful for the hard work taken to extract this information back from the ravages of time. After all, all we can do is the best that we can and that is everything. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

just some thoughts.

Brian Hunt.
Tuus matar hamsterius est, et tuus pater buca sabucorum fundor!

http://www.paulushectormair.com
http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/sales.htm

User avatar
Kirk Siemsen
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 6:15 pm
Location: California, United States of America

Re: Discussion question...

Postby Kirk Siemsen » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:16 pm

I firmly believe it can be done! It's been done with other things in this world, for example languages: the Hebrew language was at one time extinct but now has come to life in all its beauty. It's all in your point of reference: can we create great "fighters" today, and were there ever poor "warriors" in the past? The answer, I'm sure, is: of course!
"Of all the finest displays of showmanship, there is nothing like someone fencing. This is why I wish to preserve the work of my own discoveries of fighting..." --Goliath (KPS)


Return to “Virtual Classroom - closed archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.