Vadi question

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi all,

I am reading Filipo Vadi's Arte Gladiatoria Dimicandi and am seeking clarification on the Archers Stance (Posta Sagitaria) in Folio 16V. The annotation suggests that it is like a lowered version of the window gaurd, which seems to be similar to the Ochs in German fencing. However, the illustration in the Vadi text looks (to me at least) more like a Krumphau than an Ochs. I was wondering what you all thought or knew about the Archer guard and if you could clarify.

Thanks,
Jaron Bernstein
Columbus - AMRA

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Stewart, <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

You wrote: "Just looked at the plates. You may have something on the krumphau, but tp me it looks like more the result of thrusting from Vadi's Guard of the True Window, and in many ways is similar to Fiore's Posta Bicorno (Two Horned Guard). These are just quick observations."

I haven't read any Fiori (still trying to figure out Ringneck, Lichtenaur and company for the past 6 months or so) , so I can't say. I can see where you get the thrust from the window guard (finestra) as I can't envision doing a logical thrust with that kind of hand position from any other place. I was thinking of the krumphau if you start from the falcone/vom tag and cut down into a krump, it looks as if you could end up in the Archers guard (hopefully with a sidestep) shown in the illustration. Vadi's descriptive text that this guard "uses much malice in its reign" doesn't shed much light for me.


Stewart wrote: "I recommend that you try to replicate what is depicted, see what strong points it might have, evaluate the weaknesses, then try to see if there is some simple change in body position that helps eliminate those weaknesses, such as pulling the sword back a little, extending it more, holding it more to the side, standing in a wider stance. See what you can come up with and post it here. My opinion is that it is likely a result of a thrust (that's without really doing any more experimenting than picking up a waster and standing in the position for a couple seconds)."

Well, just spent some quality time with my waster (a very nice NSA one which I recommend to all) and:

1. It works as a thrust if you go into an Ochs (on the side that crosses your hands up) and then thrust from there.

2. I can get to the archers guard from a Vom Tag/Falcone if I cut down into Krumphau with the center of percussion on the opponents centerline.

From my reading of the text, Vadi seems to suggest that you should keep your point directed at your opponent while hopefully getting his point off line. A forward and downard cutting krumphau from the Falcone/vom tag with a sidestep would seem to accomplish this and could end up looking like the illustration.

That said, I don't have anything like the broad context of knowledge that others here do, so any comments are more than welcome.

Jaron Bernstein
ARMA-Columbus

[Jaron Bernstein]

The other odd thing is that when you do the Krump from the Falcon to get into the Archer Guard, you are cutting down with the short edge, which feels less natural (to me at least) than cutting down with the long edge.

I am wondering if the name of the guard (archer - i.e. shooting an arrow) implies a thrust.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Stewart,

You wrote: "If you look at it right, the cutting downward is not really necessarily a cut downward with the false edge, but can be a throwing of the tip into a sturtzhau (plunging cut) which is more like a decending thrust."

Assuming that we are starting (a big assumption here on my part) from the posta di falcon suprana (Folio 16V) then I do see how you could turn into plunging thrust that looks like the posta sagitaria at its end. The text reads, "for cunning, I am the Archer's Stance, I use much malice in my reign". I have 2 questions here:

1. What meaning do you extract from the text?
2. What position did we start from to get into the posta sagitaria? I get a sense that what we get there FROM can say a lot about what it is used FOR. I am able to get into the posta sagitaria from 2 ways: (a) as the termination of a off side schillhau/ochs or (b) descending from vom tag/falcon into either a short edge krump or as you suggest a plunging thrust. Are you aware of any other ways?

Stewart wrote: "That doesn't mean that you can't cut with the same motion."

The only cut that I can see that ends up in the posta sagitaria is a downward (fendante) krumphau with the short edge that seems awkward when I tried it. What other cuts do you see in it? I can see more thrusts as previously described.

Stewart wrote: "In fact, this could be cited as an additional piece of supportive evidence that Vadi used high, false edge strikes similar to the zwerchhau and schielhau There was recently a discussion on SFI about how folio 17v at the bottom, the guy on the left could be doing something like a zwerchhau."

17V looks very much like a situation we have found ourselves in our local freeplay with me standing still, torqing my hips for power (just as Vadi's text suggests) and zwerching from side to side as Jeff parries with the corona (folio17R) before thumping me on the head while I am rotating <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Another piece of evidence could be seen in folio 18R at the bottom. The fellow on the left (just look at his thumb placement!) seems to be doing a Shiller straight from the pages of Ringneck (at least according to my limited understanding).

Stewart wrote: "Aren't those NSA wasters just amazing? I love mine."

It points sooo smoothly. Every other waster I have handled has felt either blade heavy (were the historical earlier cutting blades with more parallel edges blade heavy?) or with that "baseball bat" feeling. The NSA ones actually handle like a sword.

Thanks for the guidance,
Jaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

Stewart wrote: "Well, I suppose you can start from posta di falcon suprana e altera. At that point I would suggest that posta sagitaria is actually the result of (1) a decending falso filo strike, or (2) a left to right zwerch like motion."

I can see how the zwerch would get your hands in the posta sagitaria, but one thing doesn't seem right on that regard. The blade in the illustration if vertical. Wouldn't the blade at the end of a zwerch be horizontal? Of course, it could just be how the illustrator showed the blade and not its actual position.


Stewar wrote: "Either one of those cuts is capable of displacing and striking the opponent simultaneously to achieve Vadi's "Volerica" effect. I'd say that if this is the case Archer does, "use much malice in [its] reign." Either way, I think that the thrusting and cutting possibilities available from this position justify the text. From Archer you can zwerch to the other side, cover with a hengen type ward, cut a strong fendente strike, thrust high, middle, and low, cut a dritto filo rota, etc."

(juggling waster, manual and keyboard <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Cool. I can see all of those from the Archer.

Steward wrote: "As for where we start from? Well, we can start from Posta di Vera Finestra (17r), Porta di fero piana terrena (16v) and change over to throw the point around for either a falso filo cut or, again, a sturtzhaw type thrust. You could even start from posta lunga con la spada curta (long stance with the sword withdrawn, 17r, bottom) and execute a coverta to Archer, or again a zwerch. Also, a dritto filo rota with the arms extended can cut to Archer."

(puts down waster) OK, I can see how those would work. I think my mistake was to look at it as if there was only one way to get there and only 1 or 2 uses for the thing.


Stewart wrote: "Interesting. Did you read the footnote?"

Yup. The footnote certainly seems plausible. I read the footnote as the guy on the right throwing in a "buffalo" wild swing, the guy on the left trying to displace it with a shielhau and the guy on the right then switching to a halfsword as a counter.

Stewart wrote: " It compares this plate to Fiore's "Punta Falsa" but I think that there really is something to your interpretation."

I am not so sure that I am suggesting an interpretation, having not studied Fiori at all (yet) and being a bit new to this. I am ONLY trying to say with any certainty that the fellow on the left at the bottom of 18R looks like he is trying a schiller type displacement due to where his thumb is on the blade and it looks like his short edge is down (see my discussion with Jay on this very point). One thing about Vadi is that if you look at all the illustrations, the hand positions are very carefully drawn so you CAN (IMO) get a sense of exactly where maestro Vadi wants the hands to be.

Stewart wrote: "The text, "Thanks to the quick turn I have made with my sword I will strike you without pause" suggests to me an action similar to zucken (twitching) or duplieren (doubling).Perhaps the guy who is halfswording deflected a fendente, and the other "twitched" back around the defenders blade with a schiller-like false edge strike to the hand.I think that it definitely bears further experimentation, though I suggest hand protection for the man who halfswords in order to perform this with enough vigor to see if it would really work."

That didn't occur to me at all, but looking at the illustration, I DO see how that could work, and it would jive with the "quick turn I have made with the sword, striking without pause".


Stewart wrote: " I think I'll give it a go tomorrow at practice. The only problem that I have with this interpretation is that it appears that the man with the thumbed grip has his left leg forward, though his original cut could be left to right and he twitches back around the other way."

Well, one thing to consider is that Vadi's footwork (folio 11V) seems to allow for power generation by means other than stepping through or back, if my reading of that is correct (it may well not be). So arguably the fellow didn't NEED to change his stance.

Let me know what how it works, and once again thanks to you guys for sharing your insights.

Jaron Bernstein
Columbus - ARMA

[Jaron Bernstein]

Stewart wrote: "We tried the displacement with the halfsword followed by the twitch to schielhau. It works beautifully. As far as not being familiar with Fiore, don't worry about it, we are all waiting for a full translation of the Getty manuscript at this stage. The footnote in Vadi is all that you need. Does that text sound like it goes with the said plate, and the text from Vadi? I don't believe it does."

I'll defer to your judgement on this. I haven't had a chance to try this out with people yet to see.

Stewart wrote: " Is it possible to perform a middle cut, wind to halfsword and thrust? Yes. Is it possible to, instead of halfswording, just wind the tip around behind a cover from the same middle cut? Yes, it works beautifully.

One thing that we discussed last night is that if you look at the illustration you can't really tell which sword is on top because the lines representing the edges of the blade are both shown. Could this be an artist's goof? Sure. Could there be meaning in it? I think so. It could possibly be a representation of a cut to one side followed by a twitch to the other side, thus showing the guy on the lefts sword as being on both sides of the halfswording man's sword. Possible? Yes. Likely? Honestly, I don't know. Unfortunately most manuals don't indicate which person is supposed to be executing the technique (Fiore has a gold crown or a golden garter on the person who is "winning" the fight)."

It could be that Vadi's text is applicable to BOTH guys using the "quick turn" for different things they could each do. I don't have a lot of evidence to support this except to speculate that in some of the illustrations there is someone with a crown as the "winner", whereas in this one no one has the crown.




Stewart wrote: "Even manuals that explicitly tell you to cut horizontally with the true or false edge describing a Zwerch often have illustrations with the cross parallel to the plane of the page (see Goliath for example)."

Could just be an artistic goof then. Ah what I could do with a time machine and video camera..... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />