What manuals to start with?

[Tim Merritt]

A quote from the member’s guide:
“The versions of Fiore Dei Liberi’s Flos Duellatorum and the various editions of Hans Talhoffer’s Fechtbuchs are good starting place. George Silver’s work is also a must read”. And there’s this from the recommended reading list (medieval), "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship - Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer's Verse." or Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword By David Lindholm & Peter Svärd

What’s good to start with as a how-to book, or in what order would you go through these books? Interpreted English, mainly longsword. I want to start introducing info from specific sources into our new study group (all beginners). I have Codex W (haven’t read yet) and John Clement’s Medieval Swordsmanship.

[leam hall]

Well, my suggestion is "none". You've got John's book, and if you've joined ARMA you have access to some more stuff. I've personally come to the conclusion that I have more than enough to last me for the next year and I just have the two of John's books and the website!

Part of the issue is the speed differnece between reading and doing. I can read fast but the old bod takes a while to get things right. Another part of the issue is the discernment level of a new person like me would miss much of the stuff in the manuals, or even worse, mis-interpret it! (See the discussoin on cutting with a rapier).

[david welch]

If you want a "beginners manual" on long sword, look at Meyer's at
http://schielhau.org/Meyer.title.html

Unlike the others, that seem to me to be either student notes, or instructor teaching points, Meyer wrote what appears, again at least to me, to be a student manual. Between that and the resources here at the web site, you should be able to find enough to keep busy. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[David Kite]

Wow, the Codex Wallerstein and JC's books were exactly what I started with! Just keep yourself limited to small bits of information at a time, and you should do just fine. In New York last summer I attended Bart's Wallerstein seminar, and it turned out my interpretaions were pretty close to his, so you should do just fine.

From what I've gathered from other discussions, a really good "how-to" is Meyer (avail. at www.schielhau.org) Fiore confused me for a long time, but it's starting to make sense now that I've got some time from Liechtenauer under my belt.

Liechtenauer, btw, is another good place to start, and I recommend getting both the Lindholm/Svard and the Tobler translations. IMO they complement each other well.

Again, though, JC's books and the Codex Wallerstein are just fine, and should keep you busy for quite awhile.

Good luck

David Kite
ARMA in IN

[Randall Pleasant]

Tim

1. John Clements book will give you a very good overview and context of the subject.

2. David Lindholm &amp; Peter Svärd book on Ringeck will give you a good started on German longsword. The Goliath manual is also good to work with. The Goliath images give you a good idea of body position at select points during the performance of the Liechtenauer techniques but they can be a little confusing to understand at first. I personally read through Lindholm, Tobler, and Goliath at the same time. When using Lindholm's and Tobler's books remember that what is important is Liechtenauer and Ringeck comments (they are the source material!). Don't forget that Lindholm and Tobler comments are just interpretations of the source material. A major problem I have seen in the use of Tobler's book is that people tend to focus on the pictures rather than Ringeck's comments (this is a fault of the reader, not the author).

[Shane Smith]

http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/fiore.html

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Tim,

If you are going to go the German route then you have enough material to go on already. Codex Wallerstein has the most comprehensive wrestling section I have ever seen in a fencing manual.

Since all fencing comes from wrestling according to one German master whose name escapes me (Dobringer?) I would suggest not worrying about the sword for quite some time and concentrating on wrestling.

When you have a bit of a handle on the wrestling, you can add a dagger (and maybe back-engineer the dagger material into unarmed striking like I have). Then the longsword will come quite naturally
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Good question. My thoughts:

"Medieval Swordsmanship" by Clements: the best total distilled summary of European Medieval sword &amp; shield and longsword fighting for the modern student of any level; technically &amp; tactically rich; should be one's first and returning book.

"Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword" by Lindholm: The best as a fully interpreted course for beginning longsword student, as taken straight from a period manual.

"Codex Wallerstein" by Walczak: Excellent for the advanced longsword student -- and has a complete wrestling course, and interesting falchion stuff.

Good luck,

JH

[C.Van Slambrouck]

Guy Windsor's book "The Swordmans Companion, A Modern Training Manual for the Medieval Longsword " was very good. Even more so while reading / studying along side with John Clements : Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods and Techniques and Chritian Tobler’s book of Sigmund Ringeck's Commentaries on Liechtenauer's Verse titled Secrets of German Medieval Swordmanship.

The only thing I would say about Guy Windsor’s work is pay attention, unlike John Clement’s work with uses general names for wards and so forth Windors explains the Italian terms, then uses them through the entirety. But if you are away from study groups, or far from where most seminars take place this book will be a helpful companion to the other works in your collection.

Christopher

[JeffGentry]

well i have only been at this a couple month's but have done alot of reading and some practice with the columbus group i just started reading Meyer and of everything i have read so far Meyer look's like it is the best for a begginner.


It look's like you could go through it by chapter and learn it fairly quickly just because of the way it is organized, you won't be proficient but you can at leas get a very good start on learning the basic's.