Training with heavy materials for strength?

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Karen Rose
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Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby Karen Rose » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:58 pm

I've read a few posts with members mentioning that they train (long sword particularly) with very heavy items....metal bars and the like, for strength building.
Are there measurable benefits to be realized in training this way? Is there a possible downside? (I'm thinking balance and compensation in particular.)
The only experience I have with anything even similar is 100 years ago when I played basketball we would run drills with weighted suits to build stamina...some folks would use wrist or ankle weights. Those items were never to be used when shooting baskets....it would screw up your real game. I'm just wondering if there is a parallel here.
Thanks.
Karen

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scott adair
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby scott adair » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:28 pm

Karen,

I think there was some information in the old Pell article about training with heavyweight weapons. I do not know if it was included in the new version. The one thing I do remember was that it cautioned one to go slowly and carefully to avoid injury. IMO if you do your floryshes and the eight cut drill with speed and intent it will give you a good workout. I remember when I first started working out with a waster it was a dramatic change from the large dowel I had been using and I could really feel the diference in my muscles afterwards. When you start to get used to the strain, increase the intensity and duration of your workouts. This would seem a better way to build strength and endurance and much less chancy than working out with weighted weapons.

Hope your training goes well,

Scott Adair

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby Randall Pleasant » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:31 pm

Karen

Focus first on performing basic techniques with correct form. A good workout with a regular waster will help build your strength. Others may disagree but I think strength training with over-weight weapons is something that should wait until one has good control over their body in the guards and while performing techniques. Using over-weight weapons earlier on could lead to incorrect form.
Ran Pleasant

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leam hall
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby leam hall » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:06 am

As a fellow newbie I get to be the voice of dissent. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

There are some terms to clarify first. My memory is not great and this comes from some things I did many years ago, so evaluate it before jumping in.

First, seperate the terms "strength" from "muscular endurance". Stength will let you lift a heavy object, muscular endurance will let you lift it often. Strength training, like weight lifting with heavy weights, tears the muscle structure slightly if done properly. It takes a day or so to heal, but will heal stronger than before. Kinda like super glue where the new is stronger than the original.

If you "do weights" with less than "heavy", you build your body's ability to keep muscles going (endurance). The body needs to get nutrients and oxygen to the muscles and flush out the waste produced by muscular activity. This is what your basketball coach was doing with the weights.

Both types are beneficial. Strength training builds raw muscle mass which gives you more pure strength for whopping those guys who thing a girl can't hit hard. (Not me!) It also increases your calories required to maintain, so if you don't increase your food intake you'll lose weight. Strength is also a component of damage resistance. Strong muscles are less likely to be injured in normal activity. Flexible is the other component.

Muscle endurance will let you continue long workouts without losing form as quickly. It will also increase your recovery time, I believe.

Part of the strength training issue is that most techniques we do use both large muslces like your biceps and smaller ones like your wrist muscles. With equal endurance in both, the smaller will tire out before the larger are really warmed up. Similar to a child and adult doing the same yardwork. The solution for this is to target your weight training to hit the large muscles first. With the example of the weighted bar I spread my hands further apart than would be on the grip. This tires my wrists less than my arms. I do a couple Segnos *very slowly* to ensure all the muscles feel it.

This is important because large muscles will often compensate for smaller ones in the same area. Thus just doing the segno with a regular weight will not necessarily build the smaller muscles. It has the added benefit of pointing out where your stance is less than firm. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

So the answer to the question is a serious workout. It consists of general weight training for overall muscle strength (2x week max), skill specific weight to ensure full attention is given (2x-3x week max), aerobic exercise for cardiovascular (3x week at ~30 minutes each), stretching for flexibility, basic practice of skills for technical accuracy, and intent practice of skills for flow and transition. And that's without a partner!

Regular training with the segno and such will give you some of the above, but it won't provide the full benefit. Since you're just starting though it should start your body heading in the right direction. For the record, my training schedule is:

M/W/F Skill training, weighted weapon, cardio wrapup.
T/R (pending our upcoming home move) General weights and stretching
S/S Recover from MTWRF!
ciao!

Leam
--"the moving pell"

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Karen Rose
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby Karen Rose » Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:51 am

Thanks Scott, Randall, Stewart and Leam,
As you are my only teachers, I appreciate your interest and taking the time to answer my many mundane questions. I've gleaned some good information here.
I've read that pell article a few times, but somehow must have blocked the weighted waster part.
I am still waiting for my waster. The dowel does have some weight, but I am looking forward to something that will have a different, more realistic dynamic to it.
Taking all suggestions into consideration, I am getting quite a good workout using the segno and using some fair intent where I feel comfortable.
As always, thanks!
Karen
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TimSheetz
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby TimSheetz » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:52 pm

Hi,

I am no strength trainer, but I am one of those who advocates using your own body weight as the resistance for overall strength building. It is good enough for gymnasts, so it is good enough for me! ;-)

I have known too many poeple personally who bowed at the alter of lifting that had to get surgury on joints to een be interested in it. Better to do activities that are a bit more natural and taxing and develop a 'core level' of fitness and strength.

Just my opinion.

Tim Sheetz
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david welch
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby david welch » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:53 pm

Karen, something else for you to consider...

use indian club workout routines. They concentrate on wrist and shoulder girdle strength and flexability. I just started a few weeks ago to rehab an old shoulder injury, and like them so much I am going to keep at it. I have already increased range of motion.

about
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_treat_0501.htm
http://indianclubs.com/cstkdtarticle.html

and some routines
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_dick_0101.htm
http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_lewis_1101.htm

and... would you believe grace?
http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.mbrsmi/awal.0097

That way you get the needed strength and flexability, without the danger of bad habits carrying over into your sword work.

I made mine out of 2 orange plastic ball bats from K-mart @ $1.99 a piece, and a bag of sand from home despot for ~$3.00. They weigh about 8 lbs. each, which is pretty heavy for indian clubs. It doesn't sound like much, but the lever arm on them is close to 3 feet. Donna is 5'2" and ~125lbs., and I am going to make her a pair at about 3 lbs. each. Just weigh out how much sand you need, put it in the bats, tamp the sand down to settle it, and fill the bats up with a can of expanding foam from home despot.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Karen Rose
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby Karen Rose » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:23 pm

Tim, sound observations. We never lifted a weight in my 5 years in the USArmy.....well, unless you count that 6 lb M16 or the 8000 lb duffel bag. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

David, thanks for sharing. That was spectacular. That could become the new Tai Chi Yang short form if it catches on. Very graceful, but you could see that it was no cake walk either.

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Jamie Fellrath
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Bodyweight exercises

Postby Jamie Fellrath » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:20 am

Great advice, Tim. I've been doing a bodyweight-only routine myself for the past few months and have honestly never felt better.

If you want some guidance on these types of workouts, there are two websites that I know some of our members have used (including myself).

First is http://www.mattfurey.com - Matt Furey's Combat Conditioning website. (I use this one). You have to pay to get his books/tapes/etc. but they are good stuff and well worth the investment, IMHO. The basic book is $30.00 or so, and the first set of tapes is around $100 but includes the book. All the exercises can be done without equipment in the privacy of your own home.

The other one that I know a few people use is the Body By Fish site at http://www.trainforstrength.com/. Click on workouts for their stuff - you can get basic workouts from them for free. They have some products you can buy as well, but I don't know much about those. Interestingly, it looks like they've started advertising what looks like an Indian club type item, as well.
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Ryan Ricks
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Re: Bodyweight exercises

Postby Ryan Ricks » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:53 am

i've noticed a definate increase in my strength and endurance over the almost three months of our class, which is really only a couple hours every friday.

but then, you'd be surprised how well a mail hauberk will give you a workout. mine's 20 lbs, with about 2.5 lbs on each arm. we usually go on friday nights until everyone's too tired to move, so this is a pretty good aerobic/anaerobic workout.

ryan
ARMA associate member

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DavidEvans
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Re: Bodyweight exercises

Postby DavidEvans » Sat May 01, 2004 4:31 am

As I recall the Knights of St.John, at their peak on Malta would train in full plate, which is early - mid 16th century stuff and fight in a stripped down form, discarding full leg and some other bits. This I suspect would feel, to me, like training in section attacks wearing a daysack with 65lbs weight of ammo in it. Then going out and dropping the daysack off and doing the same section attack. Feels like you're floating and Linford Christie had better get out of the way!

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Arthur D Colver
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby Arthur D Colver » Mon May 03, 2004 4:46 pm

I have found that doing some pre-exhaustion work on the large muscle groups (benchpress or push-ups/dips or curls/chins etc) prior to doing swordwork makes a big difference - it makes my forearms/wrists work harder without increasing the weight of the waster/blunt and subsequently increaseing the risk of injury.

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leam hall
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby leam hall » Mon May 03, 2004 4:57 pm

I do the opposite; sword work to warm up and have all my meager skills about me, and then weights/cardio when I don't need the attention required to practice. That way I get the learning while I'm freshest.
ciao!



Leam

--"the moving pell"

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TimSheetz
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Re: Training with heavy materials for strength?

Postby TimSheetz » Mon May 03, 2004 7:58 pm

A word of caution:

Being tired when doing drills is dangerous. Your control laspes and it is the prime time to hurt your training partner.

I have always thought that if you want to run faster... you run. If you want to do more situps,- you do situps.

If you want to cut harder and faster, you cut.

If you want to flourish faster and move with greater endurance, speed, and stamina, you flourish and move a lot.

Sure, you can augment these activities with workouts, but nothing beats actually doing the actions until muscle failure.

I had a cutting exercise that if done with proper intensity and focus could get even fit people begging for mercy in less than five minutes.

Gary G, where are you? ;-) He knows what I am talking about.

Peace,

tim
Tim Sheetz

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