Winden with the Messer

[Patrick Hardin]

After Jake's presentation on Meyer in New Orleans, I've been doing a lot of winding with my group here in Greenville. In my own training, I have recently been transferring certain longsword techniques to the messer, since I have been shown that the two weapons are so similar in their techniques. When transferring winden to the messer, I have run into a point of minor confusion. Winding to the lower right opening seems awkward to me. With a longsword, it works perfectly well, but when using a one handed weapon to strike an unterhau with the false edge to the lower right opening, it feels awkward, and there doesn't seem to be any good force to the cut. The only use I have found for it so far is as a defensive maneuver after winding to the upper left opening, because then it essentially becomes a schrankhut on the right side. I want to know if there is any other viable use for winding to the lower right opening with the messer. Thoughts?

Patrick Hardin

[Jake_Norwood]

I actually really, really like this cut, but it's hard to do without practice and more importantly, conditioning. That's why 2 hours a day at the pell was a good idea, I guess.

Is your thumb on the flat of the blade/lip of the guard? That changes everything.

Jake

[Patrick Hardin]

Yes, I do put my thumb on the flat, and you're right, it does make a big difference, though I find that my thumb tends to push up on the blade a bit, causing it to turn into a more horizontal cut. I'll have to work on that. I guess the real question I'm asking is, can this cut do any serious damage? I mean, downward false edge blows with the messer are one thing, but can an upward cut to the lower right opening with the false edge of a messer do any significant damage? I'm going to have to try this on some bamboo.

Patrick Hardin

[Ryan Ricks]

aren't messers single edged? in that case wouldn't the false edge be unsharpened?

[Joachim Nilsson]

Most messers have a clipped back edge that's often sharpened.

[Jake_Norwood]

This isn't a cut that "blows through" your opponent, but I feel it's superior to other unterhauen because it lends itself to an immediate second technique, such as a thrust or twitch to the other side of the opponent. I *love* this cut.

My study-partners say that it hits plenty hard, though--at least as hard as a long-edge cut at the same angle. The trick is the sudden torque of the blade, which causes a sharp (if not deep) impact. In test cutting this cut seems cleaner and even a little deeper than the long edge variety from the right, but only after some practice.

Jake

[Patrick Hardin]

Fascinating. I'm going to try this out. I have also just discovered that if I used my elbow to add leverage, the cut became more effective. I remember both you and the guys from Ochs saying the leverage the elbow can generate is very important with the messer.

Patrick Hardin

[david welch]

"My study-partners say that it hits plenty hard" = understatement.

[Patrick Hardin]

Okay, I have done some test-cutting on bamboo with this blow, and my conclusion is that it can indeed do some significant damage. My blows were with a blunt back edge, of course, and this still lacerated the bamboo enough for me to see that it would hurt a flesh and blood opponent very much...that is, if their clothing was not too thick. So, I am now satisfied that this blow is a good one, both because it can do some damage, and because it leaves room for so many follow-up techniques. Quod era demonstratum. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Patrick Hardin

[Shane Smith]

But Patrick,after seeing the power of your strikes in person,I am convinced that you could cut grass matts with a walking stick if necessary <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Those of us with less power may well need more evidence to be convinced (LOL). <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Jake_Norwood]

We also recently tested this cut. It works just as well as the true-edge version, if not better.

Jake