Counter-counters

[Nicklas Sørensen]

Hi everyone,

I am a fairly experienced but not very skilled student of swordplay - meaning lots of hands-on experience and sparring but little progress in ARMA terms - and I am currently studying counters in the belief that I have a fair understanding of the basic stances and parries.

Now to my question. It seems to me that there are virtually no defenses against a skilled counter-technique (I hope I spelled that right) once your attack is underway and momentum is comitted (once any feints have been tried). And if that is true, a skilled fighter would just sit there and anticipate, then counter, which is of course not the case, as evident in any fighting manual. Does it have to devolve into wrestling?

What are the counter-countertechniques?

Hope that wasn't too broad a question.

Nicklas P. Sørensen

[Casper Bradak]

Counters could theoretically go on indefinately given the chance. There is a counter and a counter counter to just about everything. It's just a matter of who acts and who reacts first or best.
The wallerstein codex for example, has many longsword techniques that build off of each other in counters and counter counters, as do many, with many weapons and without.
If, say, somebody counters you with a downward cut, look up a counter to a downward cut. You could see the techniques in the manuals as being several moves from the beginning rather than the first counter.

[JeffGentry]

Hi Nicklas

Hmmmm were to begin,

Sunn Zsu say's someting to the effect you can never winn from the defence, and you can never be defeated in the defence. (sound's like a paradox) <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Well Nicklas i think your question isn't so much about counter's to counter's as it is about initiative, when your in full on attack mode and nothing is getting through his defense's you have to be aware of when to get out before you lose the initiative.

The same applies to the defense and trying to gain the intiative if his counter's are coming to hard and fast for you to gain the initiative you have to find a way out to re-group if that mean's wrestling (or whatever stepping on his foot so it dirupt's his footwork) whatever gain's you a split second.

We do have a thread going on here about the pardox of defese maybe you should go there and read that, it is alot to think about.

this is all i will offer you though of MHO hope it help's.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yeah, I would agree with CB. Lindholm's presentation of Ringeck makes it clear that there are counters to counters and so forth. So always be aware of that. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good luck,

JH

[Nicklas Sørensen]

Thanks for everyones replies <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess it makes sense to argue that counters can continue indefinitely. It does kinda go with the word <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

The thing that frustrated me was that in over half the counters I know, you step into an attack to stifle/pre-empt it, then make a disarming/disabling move or throw. If the counter fails, there has so far only been two outcomes: either I manage to quickly disengage, or the grappling begins - something I ardently try to avoid as I am a featherweight at 60 kgs.

What I have never seen, in sparring or in videos on this wonderful site, is someone quick enough to actually react to being countered in the above way. I shiver to think of the day I meet a guy who can.

What I draw from this is: I need more training, specifically with my footwork and reflexes. Thanks again.

Kind regards,

Nicklas

[Casper Bradak]

Yeah, just a matter of study and practice. In my experience, having counters countered is not uncommon vs. a skilled opponent, especially when it comes to grips.

[philippewillaume]

Hello
I would say not necessarily to this mail and your original question.

Broadly speaking is two ways to fight either by moving in an out or by taking his centerline.
Most of the manual will give you a method to approach the fight.

Ringeck prone (well I think anyway) the taking of the centerline either by deflecting his blade and occupying the centerline or just by moving aside and creating a new centerline. (so I can not comment on moving in and out strategy)

One think that is important in Ringeck is that you keep your hand free from your body.
So that you can move you hand independently.

Basically start any move with you hands and finish the cut/strike/Schmitt with the body movement and always take the shortest way to hit.
Dobringer says to throw you hands at him and you tip should follow a straight line to its target.

That will close counterattacking line and untie you hands so that should he try something nasty you can abzetsen/mutuiren or duplieren.
And you will reduce the time he has to counter you.

Ps I would say that technique is what enables to have average reflexes and still live.

I hopes that helps