Greatsword article?

[JeanryChandler]

The link to the greatsword article listed in the forum entry seems to be broken?

Jeanry

[Mike Cartier]

works for me
Great Sword article

[JeanryChandler]

Ah, I got it this time. Thanks. Great article, really appreciate all the statisitcs. It's amazing what the variation in wieght can be, a 39 inch sword can be 3.47 pounds while another 48 inch sword (a bastard sword?) wieghs 2.62...

I have two questions, one for John C., one for the ARMA community in general.

Mr. Clements, there is a lot of speculation about the wave-bladed two hand swords, referred to as flammard or flambard (or incorrectly as flamberge, which denotes a wave bladed rapier). Nobody seems to know what this is for, but I the idea that it is purely ceremonial or decorational seems unlikely.

What is your opinion as to the relative difficulty of forging a blade in this manner? Is it just as easy as forging and tempering an 'ordinary' blade? What do you think of the idea that the wave -pattern may be designed to assist in draw cuts, especially when half-swording and from close binds / or passing through? I thought of this because othe wave-bladed rapier (another seeming mystery to spathologists) and from my own experiments with dopplehander sized sparring weapons...

Which leads me to my second question to all ARMA members: Has anyone tried sparring with these 'true' two- hand swords? We used to have a couple which were retired from use last year. Lacking historical sources to go by, we came up with two basic ways to use the weapon, one is half-swording in a manner similar to using a halberd, the other involves keeping momentum of continual attacks. Both methods are effective, but the latter requires a great deal of strength and endurance. Interestingly, the weapon seems to be an ideal counter to spears or pole arms..

I'm going to make another dopplehander very soon, maybe two of them, so that we can start some new experiments. I will post clips when we get them. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry

[Casper Bradak]

What is your opinion as to the relative difficulty of forging a blade in this manner?

You may have better luck asking someone who forges blades, but knowing JC, he's probably asked a smith that already.

I've sparred with them quite a bit, and really like them. I've never felt the need for continueing momentum with one (unless you're just talking about keeping the vor), I can only see that leading to deafeat by contra tempo, and you may have felt the need for it from over heavy replicas.?
(Remember that show that was on the history channel for a while, where they decided that you had to keep flails and great axes continually moving to be effective? Geez)
Moving straight to 1/2 swording is negating the great reach advantage you have with them.
From my experience, use of the cross and binding is the real secret to fighting with the greatsword. Use a lot of triangle steps and quartadas. The extra large cross allows so much cool binding work, and really expands the uses of the kron defense, and some really cool techniques can be done by going to the half sword when in a closer bind, or if you want to pfober zagel someone.
As for the wavy blades, I once heard that it was believed that they made deeper or harder to heal wounds, but as far as I know that might be made up or speculation, but either way, we know it's not true now.
The UUUUUU shaped ones (as opposed to S shape) could be "stickier" in a bind.
I think the most obvious, and most likely reasons, were the same for both the sword and the rapier, that it was no different than wearing flashy clothes or a decorative hilt. It was cool looking, stuck out, and didn't interfere with the performance of the weapon.

[John_Clements]

The form allows a straight blade to make a more effective draw cut, I've seen.

I'm told they were harder to make.

[Brian Hunt]

As an amature bladesmith, I would not consider my skills good enough to even begin contemplating a flamberg type blade. It would be much more difficult, especially if you include a distal taper.

just my opinion.

Brian Hunt.
GFS.

[Mike Habib]

I am not an ARMA member (though I am considering it), but I have sparred against true two-handers (or, more specifically, full contact practice versions thereof). I have not tried sparring with them myself. I can say, however, that they are very effective weapons that are extremely hard to close on effectively. I use short spear fairly often, and opponents with two-handers have always been among the most challenging. Interestingly, I found it much more difficult to face two-handers using a spear than to face sword and shield.

I have also faced two-handers with light weapons such as rondel daggers, and while this was rarely effective (and rather unrealistic), I found, surprisingly, that I had more success than my colleagues using various single-handed swords in combat against two-handers. The reason for this difference appeared to be the effectiveness of half-swording at close quarters, with my daggers being the only weapons on the field that had an even shorter minimum effective range. Thus, I was generally the only individual able to step in and stifle effectively (or, more specifically, step in and stab a joint as fast as humanly possible).

Simply my own, hardly expert, experiences.

Cheers,
--Mike Habib

[JeanryChandler]

All of this jibes with my experience.

Let me take a moment to describe some of our experiences with our strictly amateurish experiments with this weapon.

First, we found it much more effective than anyone thought it would be.

We found that the reach of the doppelhander to a large degree compensated for it's only slightly inferior speed.

We found a kind of modified half-sword guard which may be totally unhistorical but I had seen in some old woodcuts, where the ricasso is gripped just under the lugs with the right hand, and the pommel with the left, with the point hanging down and the pommel held high above the head. Sort of a giants plow guard, or in between a plow and a hanging guard.

Anyway, half-swording or keeping up momentum (which was easy to do but required strength) were two counter strategies we came up with to the instinctive tactic opponents would take of rushing in.

We did, incidentally, find that the dopplehander seemed to kind of trump a spear or pole-axe of roughly similar length.

Opponents with shorter weapons always tried to rush in. The dopplehander lends itself to some useful halfsword options, quillion parries and locks, pommel strikes, and even pommel parries, but we also found that you often ended up in close binds, from which a draw cut and disengagement was sometimes the best possible option.

This is where my idea about the wave-blades comes in. A lot of surviving dopplehanders have this wavy blade, and it's interesting to me that so do some rapiers. What do they have in common? Both are long weapons, arguably more vulnerable in a clinch. An enhanced draw-cut ability could be very helpful from this position.

Given the fact that (as people here have stated, and I have also heard elsewhere on sword making forums) it is indeed considerably harder to forge a blade with the wave patterns, I do believe it is likely that it was a practical and not just an ornamental modification. For one thing you see it on both ornate and very stark and functional weapons.

I know a lot of historians claim that there is no effective reason for this wave-shape, that it was just another example of Medieval (renaissance) block-headedness, but I think when it came to killing, and a lot of other things, our ancestors were a lot smarter and more practical than some modern scholars might prefer to think.

Anyway, just my $.02

Jeanry

[Stacy Clifford]

Another argument I have heard for the wavy blade is that it confers some advantage in parrying and deflection by giving the opposing blade an uneven path as they slide across each other. That robs his cut of even more force by slowing it down, plus it may be disconcerting to him if he's not prepared for that "bumpy road" feeling and cause him to commit a mental error.

[Casper Bradak]

I think it may be more useful in a bind if at all. If it were to effect a parry, it would need to be an edge parry, to effect a deflection, it would somehow have to avoid deflecting the other blade, and maintain contact.

[Douglas S]

Are there any Fechtbuchs that describe Greatsword techniques?

[Casper Bradak]

I believe that at the time, they may have thought it was for practical reasons, but I still think it was mostly fashion.
In my experience with greatswords, I've found slicing to be even less useful than with smaller weapons when up close. With access to such a useful hilt, and the ability to strike from the 1/2 sword without newtons law posing a problem, it just never seemed to be needed.
In my experience slicing with similar blades, they don't make any appreciable difference in real life. They don't allow more blade contact, in fact they allow less, though they bite more, and it comes out about even or less.
The UU shape seems to be more effective than the S shape I think.
It hurts the effectiveness of slices particularly with single hand weapons. Say the S blade rapier, (assuming it even has a functional edge) with a forceful slice with one hand, especailly the closer to the weak you get, the blade skips and bounces on your intended target. Not only does it lessen the amount of edge contacting your target (of the utmost importance with slicing) but it doesn't even allow it to continue on the same target, at least if it's clothed.

[Casper Bradak]

Masters Marozzo and DiGrassi, and Goliath are a few.

[David_Knight]

Are there any Fechtbuchs that describe Greatsword techniques?

The Goliath MS covers greatsword.

Notice in Plates 2 &amp; 8 how the left figure cups his ball pommel for added control when thrusting.

[JeanryChandler]

Not to pick nits, but lets keep our terminology strait, "greatsword" has a broader meaning, and includes hand and a half weapons like longswords, (though generally these days more the specialised cutters than the cut and thrust types). The weapons we are talking about here are dopplehanders or two-handed swords or two-hand greatswords..

Jeanry