ballistics gelatin

[TimSheetz]

I did a test cut on a deer carcass and I can tell you there is virtually no reistance on the bones on the limbs.. .none. It was so scary to see how easily a sword travels through the boney forelegs of a deer!

Only thing scarier was how easy cutting through its very large spine and neck were. Now, it was a 120 ppound deer but it stunned all the hunters who were with me and watching. They usually hack saw through the neck bones and it takes a couple of minutes for them. It took me about .002 seconds.

The members site IO think has the short vid clip with a hit on the neck.

Tim

[Craig Peters]

Makes you wonder why you'd use a saw at all. Actually, a few years back, I used a blunt wallhanger (but a decently stout one) and cut through a frozen block of shrimp quite efficiently with a single vertical oberhau. It probably would have taken much longer to try and saw through it (and I wasn't about to thaw the entire mass at once).

[GeorgeHill]

Has anyone test cut on anything with heavier bones then deer? like an elk? I've heard the bones in some wild boar are extreamly tough.

[Casper Bradak]

http://www.arma-ogden.org/content/view/11/2/
Longsword cutting deer in 1/2 through the body. I used a lot more power than I needed, I felt no resistance.

[ElizabethPangerl]

I work in a forensic science laboratory. The firearms section has ballistics gelatin that they have (rarely) used for test-firing. Bones (usually ribs) can be inserted into the gelatin to see what the effect is with bone as well as flesh. I've seen some pictures but they aren't mine to share.

The gelatin they use is old and obtained from Kind & Knox (Iowa) years ago. One 18"x6"x6" mold is used with 18 lbs. boiling water (2 4000 mL beakers) and 2 lbs. powdered gelatin. They add a few drops of cinnamon oil to cover up the smell of hoof and as an antibacterial agent. It takes about two days to set at 4 degrees Celsius.

I made up two batches of gelatin this morning. Part of my fiber training (I'm a scientist in trace evidence) involves observing different kinds of damage that can be done to a fabric. I obtained permission to use the ballistics gelatin next week to observe knife cuts, thrusts, etc. using a variety of knives and sharp weapons. Basically, I'll be covering the gelatin in old clothing and hacking at it to see what it does to the clothing. I'll take pictures, and if any turn out interesting I will post them. I was told I may be allowed to do this more than once.

I was told it would be okay to bring in a sword to try, but Steve & I don't have a historical quality sword. I'll bring in the homemade one we have, but is there anyone in MN who has a sharp sword who would be willing to bring it by the lab? I don't see any resistance to me bringing in a visitor (with their sword) for the test-cutting.

[david welch]

Since this was brought back to the top:

http://www.thearma.org//forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=openresearch&Number=14422&page=10&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

post-mortem bone as a test cutting medium

After recent test cutting incidents, I read in reply on several forums that almost immediately after death bone starts to "harden". This supposedly makes any cutting done on post-mortem bone not only a recipe guaranteed to damage your sword but so far out of scope of historical use that the results would have had no useful meaning.

However, the only "proof" offered for this idea was anecdotal and followed the line of "since we know that happens... let's try to come up with an explanation of why it happens." But nothing on IF it even happens at all.

Being more than a little interested in this, I have spent the day off and on talking with researchers from the Forensic Anthropology Center at The University of Tennessee Knoxville. This is the place that has Dr. Bass's famed "body farm".

I am going to continue an email discussion with them on the most accurate medium and practice for test cutting to help get us the best info possible. However, these are the facts as I understand them so far...

1) Bone is hard.

2) Pigs are probably the best test medium we can use. They are in fact the next best thing to using an actual human cadaver.

3) There is no discernable hardening of "wet" bone encased in flesh after death.

4) The post-mortem "hardening" in the bones of a animal from a grocery store would be so small as to be insignificant, with the possible exception of a fraction of an inch at an exposed end.

5) Normal freezing and thawing should not effect bone hardness.

6) Bone hardening starts when it is naked, as happens through decay, contacts the air, and begins drying.

All in all, the consensus was that if it is fresh enough to eat... it represents living bone well enough to be used as a 1:1 equivalent for any experimentation we would do on it.

[ElizabethPangerl]

Folks, just to be clear:

My note on ballistic gelatin was not to advocate any specific method for test-cutting. I was merely sharing my firsthand experience with making ballistic gelatin in a forensic setting. The purported aim of my test-cutting experiment is to examine fabric damage - the anthropological validity of ballistics gelatin is not at issue in this study.

I was also kind of psyched that I get to do test-cutting at work, however valid the medium.

[ElizabethPangerl]

I am not necessarily advocating gelatin as the most economic, easy, or accurate option for test-cutting, but I had to look into this for work and thought I'd share the info with the group:

http://www.ballisticgelatin.net/pages/ballistic.html

It's $80/10 lb gelatin now. We previously had a 50# pail from another company that has lasted for decades. The old recipe required 2 lbs gelatin and 8 L boiling water to mold a block about 18" x 6" x 6". It doesn't necessarily stand on its own and can't be reused once it's all sliced to bits. If you keep it around too long it liquifies and grows fuzzy spots.

Enjoy.

[Jaron Bernstein]

[quote=" If you keep it around too long it liquifies and grows fuzzy spots.[/quote]

That sounds like some food in my refrigerator!