Master Cuts in sparring, and the Samurai mastercut

[JeanryChandler]

I'm starting to use master cuts with a bit more success in our sparring, and I wanted to see if my experiences are in any way similar to those of more knowlegable fighters.

Please forgive me in advance for my naivete of WMA technique and my lack of knowlege of the masters. I for some reason find it very difficult to decifer the original works of the masters and have narrowed my study for the time being to primarily concentrate on Ringeck / Lichtenaur, for which I have been relying exclusively on David Lindholm and Peter Svards Palladin Press translation, which I belive is ARMA approved, plus a bit of meyer. So please bear with me if I seem a little dumb, I pick up most things pretty fast but I'm slow to learn this stuff for some reason.

At any rate, I notice as the books suggest, at least two general approaches to performing mastercuts successfully. The first way that began to work for me was as a counter. If I saw that someone was cutting down in a zornhau for example, I could counter with another zorhnhau or a zwerchau (pardon my spelling of all german terms) and if I timed it right, cut them while protecting myself, either stepping in aggressively to cut their head or stepping back or to the side and cutting their hands. I started using this against some of our more aggressive fighters with some degree of success, but it still caused me to lose initiative and timing has to be perfect especially against very fast and hard strikers (which most of my sparring partners are). Also, if my form isn't perfect a sometimes their strikes could still blow through and glance off my left shoulder somewhat. I learned to alleviate this further by stepping more to the outside as I strike.

I have read that timing isn't supposed to have to be perfect if form is correct so i assume I am missing something here.

The second general approach is to use a mastercut as an opening attack. Lately I've been watching my opponents at the beginning of a bout, and if I notice their guard is off to one side a little bit instead of strait in the middle, especially if they are in Von Tag, I can strike with a zornhau or zwerchau (usually stepping in aggressively) and get them regardless of what they try to do. This seems to work a bit more cleanly for some reason than when I perform a mastercut as a counter. All I have to be sure of is that I dont telegraph with my eyes or some sudden wolfish grin when i realise the opportunity is there.

This is still a pretty limited repetoire for mastercuts for me, because I only do them as counters to certain attacks or when I see a flaw in someones guard. But it does add the meisterhau to my arsenal of techniques to use in a bout at least.


This last week we had two new guys come to practice, guys who are streetwise and play basketball regualrly so they are in real good shape. Perfect to try these two Meisterhau on I thought because they strike very fast and hard and being amateurs, use wrath cuts a lot. It was interesting to see the WMA techniques worked almost perfectly, as both counter and pre-emptive opening attack. In the old days I used to always use hanging guard counter against a physically athletic but amateur opponent like these guys, but now I definately have a new option.

I cant wait to try these against a really experienced WMA fighter, I suspect I'll have a harder time.

I'm interested if other people find it works the same way for spem, or how else they use mastercuts in actual full speed sparring as opposed to drill.

Also, I saw this cut in the film "Seven Samurai" which I understand has a pretty accurate representation of japanese fencing, and I was wondering if there was any parallel to it in WMA. I'm guessing there is. This is from the famous duel in the begining of Kirosawas "7 Samurai", fought once with staves and once with swords. Both times the winning fighter goes into a tail guard stance, sword behind him on his right side with the blade up, with his left foot forward. (I'm usually more comfortable in a tail guard on my left side for some reason.)

Then as his opponent charges and strikes down in what looks like a zornhau, the Samurai takes a step or a hop to his right and strikes over and and down in a zornhau himself. He cuts the other guy perfectly, voiding the other cut and possibly beating or binding his opponents sword to his left as he cuts.

I'm mostly studying Lichtenaur / Ringeck, but I've never seen a cut from the right tail guard going up and over like that. I use the tail guard a lot but I usually cut from under. I was wondering if anybody knows of a WMA equivelent to this method. I've already used it in sparring with some success.

Jeanry

[Steven Engelbach]

My reply will be imperfect, as I am not very experienced in JSA, but the guards you probably saw are:

wakigamae: your tail-guard
jodan no kamae: sword held over head

Now the duel, if I remember correctly went something like the eventual victor assumed wakigamae. But when he made the cut, he actually passed briefly into jodan no kamae before making a descending cut. As in many WMA sword schools, the philosphy in JSA seems to be "begin and end everything in a guard (kamae)."

I don't remember what his opponent (the loser) did, exactly (i.e. stances and cut)--I'll have to get out my tapes and watch this movie again (it is an excellent movie).

Anyway, I thought it was an insightful and interesting post.

Since we're on the subject of WMA and JSA, one thing I've been wondering lately. In JSA, it is the left hand that provides the power in the strike with the right hand guiding direction (when fighting with two hands on the weapon, obviously). One thing I've heard here and there for longsword is that the opposite is true. Does anyone know where this is described (if it is described) in a period text?

Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

I use that oberhau from tail guard on occasion, there's nothing special or unusual about it. It does work better with a traverse and it flows beautifully into a doppelhau or a thrust from pflug. I need to work on triangle stepping with that one more myself.

[Casper Bradak]

Sounds like all you need to do is keep working at them. Use them in drills and technique practice too, they'll come along much faster than only using them in sparring.
If I remember right, in the 7 samurai, the first bout with wasters was a zornhau via deflection, the one with swords was a zornhau via a void (to interpret into somewhat parallel terms).
As for the grip, I'm not sure if there is any surviving description, so you could argue this away, and I don't doubt there may be others who do it differently, but the finger grip is opposite to japanese (thumb and pointer for grip, others loose for control and snap on impact), and with longsword, both hands contribute to power, the hand towards the pommel controls the finer movements and agility (motion of the sword), while the hand by the cross controls major movements simultaneously (movement of the sword).

"...the philosphy in JSA seems to be "begin and end everything in a guard (kamae)."

I think that's the philosophy in MA in general.

[JeanryChandler]

Sounds like all you need to do is keep working at them. Use them in drills and technique practice too, they'll come along much faster than only using them in sparring.

Of course we use them in drill and practice. I've been drilling mastercuts for two years, and I was able to see them done with quite good form at the Southern Knights event last year.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I find that my repertorire of moves in a full speed sparring match or a fight is much reduced from my theoretical repertorie available when training or doing drill.

That is what I was really talking about here. I'm always excited when I "make the leap" from doing something in drill to actually using it in a real fight.

I went through the same thing for example when we first started successfully employing some half-swording gambits, disarms, and throws. We had been doing them for quite a while in drill, but getting them into a sparring bout was quite a leap of intuition and understanding.


Jeanry

[david welch]

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I find that my repertorire of moves in a full speed sparring match or a fight is much reduced from my theoretical repertorie available when training or doing drill.

A lot of us are only using our padded wasters for sparring. You might want to try drilling with you and your partner dressed as you would to spar, using your padded wasters, and instead of sparring try drilling your moves exactly as you would in sparring with contact.

Learn the move with a wooden waster, drill slow with no or mild contact with the wooden waster, drill faster and with harder contact with a padded sword, and then try using the technique in sparring. We have just started trying this and are starting to see results already. It was just to hard, for me at least, to jump straight from light drilling with a waster to integrating the technique into sparring. Maybe you are in the same boat.

Good luck, and let me know if it works for you.

[JeanryChandler]

Thanks david, that actually sounds like a good idea. You could even go the whole range, start with steel blunts, then wooden wasters, then padded wasters, increasing speed at each step. I'll try this out, thank you.


Jeanry

[Matthew_Anderson]

IMO, the key to successful use of the master cuts lies in persistance and successful application of a few general principles that Ringeck stresses throughought his manuscript. If you strike and set aside his blade and cut him well, the fight is over, but more often than not, your first strike will not succeed perfectly and you must continue to fight. This is when concepts like feeling (fuhlen) come into play. If you strike and he sets aside your attack, he may be "weak" and you can simply continue to press your attack home or he may be "strong" and you will wind (winden) or lift off (abnemen) or some other technique in order to regain the initiative. For example, lets say he strkes an oberhau, you counter with zwerchau. Your range or timing is a little off and he sets your zwerch aside with strong opposition. Because you feel his strength, you immediately lift off his blade and zwerch to the other side. He is quick and sets aside this blow as well, binding strongly. You immediately wind up and thrust to his upper opening. He sets aside your thrust by raising his hilt. You immediately zwerch to his left again, this time cutting him in his upraised arms. Throughout the above exchange, although it took four tries to eventually "win", you maintained the intiative, causing him to react to your technique untill he could no longer keep up. occasionally, you will win a fight with one blow, like a one punch knockout in a boxing match, but usually, just like in boxing, you will have to be able to string together a series of techniques in a flurry of blows that overwhelms your opponent. of course, all this requires a lot of practice to develop the ability to flow from one technique to the next wihtout hesitation and with a lot of confidence.

[JeanryChandler]

Thanks matt, love the battle description in your post. Of course I am familiar with maintaining initiative in this manner, though I do not think a mastercut is necessary to begin such an exchange, though I expect the more threatening your opening attack the better.

In my post above I was speaking of using meisterhau in the 'perfect' way, for the one-strike kill. I suppose this ability will fade as my opponents learn increasingly sophisticated counters and better winding and binding techniques, and the whole thing ultimately becomes a kind of arms race.

Do you feel that with two fighters both at high levels of WMA training that one strike kills are far less likely?

Jeanry

[Jaron Bernstein]

"Maybe I'm alone in this, but I find that my repertorire of moves in a full speed sparring match or a fight is much reduced from my theoretical repertorie available when training or doing drill."

I have the same problem. What I have found that does work is:
1. Always keep the vor as much as possible.
2. When in the bind be able to feel and "listen" quickly
3. That nifty Meyer Zucken thing to the 4 quarters. If it doesn't work, give up and shift to something else fast.
4. Keep shifting from side to side. I always get tagged when I go in a straight line. Jeff the Elder in our study group is notorious for standing in one place and hitting you with a schietelhau. Not very elaborate, but it works great for him. If you can't move around him, that damn thing gets you every time. Footwork, footwork, footwork.

What I CAN'T do is make all those nifty sword taking, ringen am schwert and "tricky" things. Same problem as you have. They work great in drill but try them live and little success.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeanry

In my post above I was speaking of using meisterhau in the 'perfect' way, for the one-strike kill. I suppose this ability will fade as my opponents learn increasingly sophisticated counters and better winding and binding techniques, and the whole thing ultimately becomes a kind of arms race.

This is MO, One thing i have noticed is watching the opponent's sword, The way i have had the most success is to not worry about the opponent's sword.

Fighter A is in R. Vom tag, you are in R. Vom tag, Now your planning a zwerchau, when you traverse right and strike to hit him in the head/neck you protect your head and void his strike all at once if you are concerned about not hitting him and getting hit then that is what will happen a majority of the time, When you strike fast and confidently it more than likely will land.

Speed, confidence and surprise is essential in all the Master cut's.

If you have been doing them in practice for 2 year's you need to stop worring about getting hit and just start doing them in sparring.

Jaron gave me a beating this sunday at practice and that is ok, i was trying to improve my ability to see thing's in the chaos of a fight.

So i said nothing and would block a few shot's until i saw an opening now that doesn't mean i was going to strike, the point was to look for the opening and find it while under assault if i was in a position ot strike i would i wasn't alway's in a position to strike so i would turn away and take the hit and start again.

Remember it is not a competition, we do not want to get hit at time's though we may need to in order to learn iof you say this is what i want to do then try it and get hit evaluate why you got hit and try it again.

These are my personal opinion's and are subject to change at any time and should not be taken as the only way of doing thing's, i have a strange way of doing thing's.

Jeff

[JeanryChandler]

I have the same problem. What I have found that does work is

All good advice Jaron. Still, I dont see this as a 'problem', I think it is just a natural consequence of fighting. I dont know if the Masters could bring every bit of their training into a fight, but I certainly have never met anyone who could.

I think it's normal for there to be a certain lag between the two, assuming you are always learning.

There are three factors at play, one when the adrenaline is flowing, I simply dont believe you can think as calmly and clearly as when you are relaxed. It's like you have less RAM to work with. Two, it's simply easier to execute a move in drill when the results are predictable, so moves you dont have 'down' perfectly can still be done very nicely, but they just may not be there yet when you start swinging full contact, full speed. Three, (re: what I was saying earlier), sometimes you think you learned something very well in drill or in half-seed sparring, but you may find out it 'feels' very different at full speed, against an aggressive, unpredictable and fast opponent.

I think it is a natural process frankly. There will always be some lag. Look at Mixed Martial arts fighters in unarmed fighting, their form is nothing like it is in a drill.

Jeanry

[David Craig]

All good advice Jaron. Still, I dont see this as a 'problem', I think it is just a natural consequence of fighting. I dont know if the Masters could bring every bit of their training into a fight, but I certainly have never met anyone who could.

I think it's normal for there to be a certain lag between the two, assuming you are always learning.

There are three factors at play, one when the adrenaline is flowing, I simply dont believe you can think as calmly and clearly as when you are relaxed. It's like you have less RAM to work with. Two, it's simply easier to execute a move in drill when the results are predictable, so moves you dont have 'down' perfectly can still be done very nicely, but they just may not be there yet when you start swinging full contact, full speed. Three, (re: what I was saying earlier), sometimes you think you learned something very well in drill or in half-seed sparring, but you may find out it 'feels' very different at full speed, against an aggressive, unpredictable and fast opponent.

Jeanry,

I agree 100%. As someone who has a lot of time to read and learn techniques and practice solo, I find that I have a good deal of academic knowledge that is great for doing slow-speed drills. But that doesn't necessarily mean I can use those techniques effectively at full-speed against determined opposition. And if I have to think about a technique before I can use it, it will be too late -- unless maybe I'm using it as an opening attack.

The more I learn and train, the more I am convinced that timing is critical. The fighter who has trained his techniques to the point where they are instinctive, and can execute them at the exact time necessary has a significant edge over someone who may know more moves but has to think about them. It's no accident that the indes concept is emphasized by the German masters.

David Craig

[John_Clements]

I fight like I train, train like I fight, and teach the same way.
I suggest you all train harder, practice more, learn to do more, and improve your fitness and conditioning.

JC

[Mike Cartier]

There is always going to be an element of Chaos to sparring and combative fighting in general. Just embrace the chaos and as John has said train as you fight, not getting locked into too many kata like movements is good too, i always try to add variables to my drills, change toe footwork tempo or step, change the starting guard, cut at different angles, do it going forwards, backwards and traversing both ways etc.

You get the idea.

I honestly prefer voiding to displacing, its safer because i am not there to get hit if i screw up the timing which i often do in the heat of sparring.