Messer/Dusack Posture Question

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi all, I'm new to WMA so please forgive me if this question has already been answered else-where in the forum. Here goes:
<img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> In regards to the messer/dusack, what practical application is there for holding the "off" hand behind the back? Talhoffer and others show numerous techniques where the left hand is used to grapple, set aside, and other-wise control an opponent. Wouldn't it be more efficient to keep the left hand upfront where it could more quickly be employed? I realize that we're only talking about a few fractions of a second, but couldn't the split-second it takes to move the left hand into action make the difference between staying healthy and geting wounded? Does the posture illistrated in the manuals assist in balance, power, or edge placement in any way? What's everybodys thought on this matter?

Jared L. Cass, Wisconsin

[Derek Wassom]

Maybe to protect it. You see a lot of cuts to the arm in plates with messer.

[Jake_Norwood]

As I understand it, there's also been talk that it *may* have been to keep it from obscuring the drawing.

[Casper Bradak]

It's also possible that it's a training tool, used to make students focus on their sword-work.
I've tried it though, and I like to use it.

[Guest]

This is a really good question. It almost looks as though this is just some sort of a convention or, dare I say it "rule" for this type of fighting. However, upon further reflection and because I feel that Talhoffer in particular is showing pretty much "no holds barred" fighting, there is probably a functional reason for keeping the off hand behind the back. The idea of keeping the off hand away from your opponent's blade makes the most sense of any of the ideas I've heard so far but I'm still not sure we really know the real significance of this.

[Guest]

I think that off hand placement could just be reflection of the preference of the author. I have heard, from fencing coaches, to keep off arms out of the way and behind the back, but from kali instructors to keep the "live hand" in front and in motion for grappling etc. Also, I have no experience with this manual, but could it be to make the illustration of the posture clearer? or is that silly?

Kelby Napier

[Hans Heim]

Hi Jared,

the first answer to your question has to be:

Because the manuals tells you to do it.

Out of Leckuechner:

Sechs hew lere
Auß eyner handt wyder dy were
Dy linck handt leg auff den rucken
Auff dy prust wiltu were zucken

Hye lert der meyter wye man sich hlaten sol yn dem vechten des messer vnd wye man sich dar ein sol schicken vnd zum ersten So soltu mit eyner hendt vechten mit dem messer vnd dy ander soltu auff dem ruck haben ob dw aber wildt mit lerer handt vechten alz mit messer nehmen ... vber greiffen .... beschlissen ... So soltu dy handt von dem ruck auff dy prust venden wasz dw ym wildt ynbendig vber den arm treyben.

Item ze dem anderen so werden ynd dem ... sechs verporgen hew gemelt vnd ...... ausz dem kümmen vil gutter stuck wer sy recht treyben kann vnd sych ynd dy weysz kunstlich zw schicken vnd wye dw dy treyben solt mit .... stucken das wirstu her nach vnericht.

Here wrote Leckuechner that you should learn six cuts (the 6 mastercuts of the Langes Messer/Dussak) and to put your left hand at your back. And only to put it infront if you if you want to do so special techniques, like uebergreiffen (grab ofer his weaponarm) or beschliessen.

To hold my left arm back is sonetimes very hard for me, because I`m training Pekiti Tirsia Kali too and to hold our lifehand back is very strange. But every manual with the Langes Messer/Dussak shows the left hand at the back.

The left hand is save from attacks and you are not in the desire to block with it.

Hans

[Guest]

With some freeplaying I've done, I've found that the free hand is one of my favorite targets whenever I want to joke around with my oppenent. Especially in dagger work, I've enjoyed stabbing at the hand that's actually trying to catch my blade hand.

I usually keep my hand out in front of me while using cut and thrust, most likely due to my inexperience. Though most often times it's not doing anything besides getting in my way. haha.

Michael

[Jared L. Cass]

Thanks guys, that really helped clear some things up. Seems to make good sense. Especially your reply, Hans. Call it stupid pride, but I never like to do things just because "that's the way it is." But, what was further said about keeping the live hand out of the way (until one needs it specifically to grapple/trap) made me grudgingly accept the advise <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
While doing some test cutting, supplimenting a machete for a messer (think that's a decent substitute?), I did notice a tendancy for better edge placement and cutting power by being in this stance. This was really noticable when copying the counter attack illistrated by Talhoffer's plate 228. To simulate an opponent striking down at me, I rigged up a spring-loaded contraption that had a dowel with a wet newspaper attached to the end of it. As I released it to strike, I raised my "messer" to meet it...the resulting cut was impressive! Do you guys think that keeping the live hand behind the back causes a simular form of momentun as when throwing the left arm back when making a lunge? It sure felt like it to me. Any more thoughts on this matter?

[Derek Wassom]

It my be worth pointing out that in Paulus Kal's 1462 fechtbuch, the messer posture is different. It showes arms against the abdomen instead of accross the back. I think there are a few plates with the hand on the hip as well.

[Guest]

Ok, I admit I'm reading the old posts, but they're new to me <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> , and they're better than the thesis I'm writing day and night <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />
Jared, I discussed this matter with my Aikido master in the past, who was a good foil and sabre player too.
It was me (who else? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) who came out with the following:
If you look at yourself in the mirror while on guard left arm out, you see both the arm and the shoulder, if you put your hand on the left hip you'll ipso facto give more of a profile hiding the left shoulder and taking the right collar bone away from his semi frontal position in which it can be struck more easilly.
One of the fastest killing cuts is the one to the collar bone, because there's a big arthery under it and if severed it will lead you to death in a few seconds. Putting the left hand behind the back you protect the left collar bone and partially protect the other.
The left arm left in the breeze is a target by itself and it could also get in the way of your own molinets when they're tight.
This was about sabres, maybe it applies to messers too.
Carlo

[Stuart McDermid]

HI Guys,

Somthing I have noticed is that having the arm behind your back helps to keep your posture more upright. Stooping is quite uncomfortable from here.
Cheers,
Stu.

[scott adair]

Jared,

This question has come up before and I can't remember much of the conversation. I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. I have trained in arnis and we definitely kept our secondary hand in front of our chest and not behind our backs. In sparring with sticks I found that I would prefer to take a shot to the arm while I gave a head shot rather than take a simultaneous head shot. In knife sparring I noticed that if I left my live hand out too far that my friend would sometimes strike it. However, there were just as many times when he would thrust and I would use the live hand to parry the thrust while delivering one of my own.

Take a look at plate 230 in Talhoffer. If the guy getting 'thrust in the guts' had his hand in front I would bet he would try to parry that blade out. It would be instinctual and I think that having a hand behind your back would cut response time.

I have experimented with having the empty hand in front and behind to see how it affects movement and I think on lunges it does help to throw it back somewhat.

I think this would be a good thing for some of us to look at this june in NY

Scott Adair

[Guest]

Scott I think that with messers, even more so than with sabres, having you arm hit will put you out of business, having your collar bone hit will kill you with a greater likehood than a head blow that could slip on the round top skull (if you are lucky).
Beside this I found the hand on the hip is not so slow to use and I place it there in single C&amp;T, sabre and spadroon play and it seems to work, it is with rapiers and small swords that the masters usually leave it out, in broad sword manuals it is usually left back, there must be some good reason for this.
Carlo

[scott adair]

Carlo,

I am not saying that I want my arm hit. I am saying that given the choice between a shot to the arm or a shot to the head, and neither is a good thing, I would take the arm wound over the head wound. It might mean the difference between being called 'stumpy' or 'the dead guy'. It is a given that you would not want to be hit at all, but if a wound is inevitable then minimize it if possible.

As for leaving the hand on the hip rather than putting it behind your back that sounds reasonable.

scott