New Longsword sparring clips

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M Wallgren
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby M Wallgren » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:55 pm

I think you could figure out a lot about combos from video games and strategy-based games. I'm sure everyone has heard or read that some people thought chess had a practical application in teaching the mind to read your opponent, although I am uncertain if that such practice would directly aid the sort of thinking you need for personal combat.


Well, Games are one thing and Life or Death fights another. Chess is a great way to sharpen your mind, but I would not try it in splitseconds with my life on the line. Trained instincts on the contrary is something I would strife to acheve.
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JeanryChandler
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:12 pm

Yeah, I agree with Walgren. The idea of stringing attacks together like that in a pre-set fashion sounds good in theory, but in practice it is going to get you killed.

They only have to see you do it once for one thing to know what comes next.

For another, the fight against an experienced opponent is too complex for a preset attack to work. Believe me, I know plenty and I'll do them sometimes on inexperienced and insufficiently aggresive fighters, but every strike has a counter and every guard (that you end up in between strikes) has a vulnerablity. If your opponent reacts appropriately quickly enough and you proceed with an intended attack anyway, you are going to get hit. The best option is to change to a secondary or teriary attack, but that may not be possible, and if it's not, you better pull out before you get "owned".

If you watch that clip you can actually see this taking place, in the third bout and the last bout, I start an attack, realise he has read it, and break it off.

Do you have a lot of sparring experience?

Jeanry
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby Zach Palfreyman » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:12 pm

Yeah, this is an issue which is very related to the 'mutual death' thing.


I understand what you mean by the tradeoff between pressing the attack and suffering mutual death. I'm sure you already realize all this, but its good to go over it, and hopefully maybe even get some new insight.

When you first start training, I bet most people notice that most of their attention is focused simply on performing the move at hand. After time, they will be able to perform this more instinctively, and so their mind can begin to focus on what move they want to peform next. This will always be a constant thing in practice, your mind focusing over the next step in your progress, with all the previous steps usually just a buzzing in the background. So to put this into the combo / mutual death scenario, at least half the point is to keep your opponent from reading you. Thus he might see an opening as you perform a move, and not realize he is also about to be smacked (or he does, but to late to do anything but simply commit to his attack).

At first you will be focusing on what moves to string together, also probably trying to read your opponent at the same time and figure out the best move to use next. With practice, stringing together your combos will not only become easier, leaving your mind to think of other things, but you will also have some first-hand experience of how and when you are vulnerable peforming these different moves. Since your mind will then be more free to think about other things, you'll be able to use that to read your opponent and know if he is about to make a counter-attack in your combo, and you'll then find it much easier to block his counter and continue pressing your attack.

So in short, the mutual death at first was simply a lack of skill and judgement, but I think as you run into the problem while trying to practice the combo, its more just a side-effect of the skill you are training, and less because you lack skill. If you keep at it, then you'll eventually push past that point and you'll again see the mutual death getting more and more rare. I also think that this is likely one of those speedbumps that keeps people from advancing. It looks like their efforts are only making them worse, and give up before getting to the reward. Well, I'm no professional boxer or anything, but that's just IMO and combos are one of the few things I do know about fighting, so I think I am pretty close to the mark on most of my points.

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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:14 pm

The sword I'm using is 2 lbs 12 ounces. The sword skip is using is 3 lbs 4 ounces.

I believe my arms are strait out from alber in that false edge cut, I can't tell for certain though because of the loose fitting shirt and my short arms!

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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby M Wallgren » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:16 pm

Please, it Martin. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:21 pm

So to put this into the combo / mutual death scenario, at least half the point is to keep your opponent from reading you. Thus he might see an opening as you perform a move, and not realize he is also about to be smacked (or he does, but to late to do anything but simply commit to his attack).


Well, indeed. If you aren't VERY good at masking your intentions in longsword you will get hit right away, you wont get more than one attempted strike made. There is really a lot more going on in a longsword bout than is obvious.

Incidentally, amateurs dont disengage effectively, from what I have seen. One of the hardest things for new fencers to learn is reach and measure, when they are vulnerable... two amateurs will tend to walk into danger and get hit immediately, either one or both at the same time.

Of couse I do understand what you are getting at, but it almost sounds lke you are coming from more of a boxing or hand to hand fighting perspective. In boxing, the goal is to land as many blows as possible as hard and as quickly as possible. Blocking and voiding is more difficult than with longswords, and quantity of attacks is an important factor.

With longswords, assuming blossfechten (sp) if you have ever seen test cutting on meat and bone, one or at the most two good cuts or thrusts is going to end the fight.

So I think, personally it's a different dynamic. Though I do agree a more sustained series of attacks is a good idea, IMO it's exponentially more difficult to do this effectively in a longsword fight and there is a rapidly diminishing return on the value of it. Thats why even the master Joachim Meyer suggests backing back out after at the most 6 exchanges IIRC.

Jeanry
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby Zach Palfreyman » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:42 pm

Well, Games are one thing and Life or Death fights another. Chess is a great way to sharpen your mind, but I would not try it in splitseconds with my life on the line. Trained instincts on the contrary is something I would strife to acheve.


I totally get that, I only use words like "most" cause I think there are some exceptions to the rule. In my initial post, I did not mean a preset video-game type of combo, just using the word to mean pressing your attack instead of just stoping at a few swings. In theory, the perfect fighter will not just be stringing lots of moves together, either preset or random, but reading his opponent and then choosing the best possible move to do next, and will not be thinking just the next move ahead, but many moves ahead. But such a fighter would need the greatest skill, talent, and training. To get there you have to start somewhere, and a preset combo could get a rookie used to the idea. The true goal is to always choose the move you think best, but since nobody will realistically just jump in and be able to do that, they need to build up to it with more simple things.

As for video games, as I was implying, I do not think that playing them, or chess, or whatever else is going to make you better at fighting. I was saying that it can be a useful analogy to combos in real fightings. There are uncountable variables in a real fight, strategy games gets rid of all those and focuses only on reading and out-thinking your opponent. Agreed, of limited or no use in a fight, but still quite useful in studying the 'hows' and 'whys' that make combos successful.

A note on the combos looking more impressive. Yes they do, that's why you see people fight that way in movies. But the reason they are impressive is people find feats of skill impressive. You also see people use combos in basically every fighting art, especially among the most skilled. Boxing, fencing, martial arts, wrestling, etc. So that tells me two things. First is that it takes a lot of skill, second is that it is effective (the greatest fighters in the world wouldn't do it if it wasn't).

As for my sparing experience, nothing really as organized or practiced as this. I used to do some bare-knucked sparing with my cousin, wrestled with my brother while he was doing it in high school, and back when I was in high school I made some practice swords and went at it occationally with different people.

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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:59 pm

when I was in high school I made some practice swords and went at it occationally with different people.


Get yourself some padded weapons or wasters and find somebody to spar with as an adult, I think you will find it a very englightening experience.

Here are some more clips

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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby M Wallgren » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:00 pm

To get there you have to start somewhere, and a preset combo could get a rookie used to the idea. The true goal is to always choose the move you think best, but since nobody will realistically just jump in and be able to do that, they need to build up to it with more simple things.


I don´t agree! The true goal is to instictevly do what you need, to have enough training to istinctevly respond and react. There is no time to think after Zufechten (sp?). And then it is better to have a few technics in your reportuare (sp?) that is trained into your backbone (maybe a homemade proverb).
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby Zach Palfreyman » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:19 pm

I don´t agree! The true goal is to instictevly do what you need, to have enough training to istinctevly respond and react. There is no time to think after Zufechten (sp?). And then it is better to have a few technics in your reportuare (sp?) that is trained into your backbone (maybe a homemade proverb).


If you reread my post, you'll see that I already said as much. As you train, you'll master something and be able to set it in the back of your mind (instinct), so then you will be able to spend your mind with the next step of progress. I would guess that a lot of people simply revert to pure instinct in a real fight, I have been in real fights myself and experienced it first-hand. But I have also been in a real fight and been using my mind to calculate. IMO the greatest fighters will train their mind this way. I was just reading a manual on this websight by some italian guy who was basically saying the same thing, about using your intellect to win a fight. So I believe that I have at least one historical fighting man in my corner who agrees with me.

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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:23 pm

Here are three more with Skip and I, after we had switched weapons and I now had the heavier, slightly longer one.

http://www.iregames.com/jr/april2b-sj.wmv


Jr- Arm
Jr- Arm
Skip- Arm

Next, with me panting in the background from my match with skip while running the camera, you see Chris sparring with Lenny. Chris is a very experienced streetfighter but hasn't done as much systematic longsword training. As a result, while his instincts are excellent, his timing is good and he strikes very accurately and with a great deal of strength, he also telegraphs horribly, doesn't have his basic guards down and generally has bad form. He's still a challenging opponent in spite of that, which makes him a good training partner, he's sort of the ultimate dangerous amateur. Lenny is more experienced but not really in the mood for Chris on this day though and strength wins out over finesse here:

http://www.iregames.com/jr/april2b-cl.wmv

Chris - Hand
Chris - Back
Chris - Head
Lenny - Leg
Chris - Hand
Lenny - Arm
Chris - Arm

Next skip steps up the plate. Skip is more keyed up and ready for Chris. Notice how easily he reads Chris' intent and takes advantage of it.

http://www.iregames.com/jr/april2a-sc.wmv

Skip-Arm
Skip-Head
Skip-Arm
Skip-Arm
Skip-Draw Cut to abdomen

Chris learns quick though, and here in the first bout in this second series, you can see an excellent example of where a 'combo' can get you in trouble, skip tries a double strike and it's read and skillfully countered by a brutal cut from Chris.

http://www.iregames.com/jr/april2b-sc.wmv

Chris-Head
Skip-Arm
Skip-Arm
Skip-Thigh
Chris- Thigh


Ironically, after all this fighting, and after i beat skip several times, skip beat chris several times, Chris went on to beat me 4 or 5 times... thats how it goes sometimes (my excuse is that i had pretty much used myself up that day in my bouts with Skip <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Jeanry
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby M Wallgren » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:23 pm

Sorry! English is not my first language, I missunderstood you somewhat there! (I´m Swedish)

Then we agree...
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JohnGallego » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:45 pm

Hey Jeanry, thanks for sharing these, I'm having a lot of fun watching them (and I'm learning too)!

Keep 'em coming <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:49 pm

Thanks glad to hear it. let us know what you think, Skip and Chris and Lenny and the rest will probably read this forum.

Jeanry
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Re: New Longsword sparring clips

Postby Alfred Wong » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:24 pm

Thanks Jeanry,

I was doing some study on the weight/PoB's effect on longsword techniques, anywy it seems that you guys are getting much, much better than before. Seems that the mass doesn't matter much for you guys. I did saw those hangen seems to hold up very, very well. It's strange to me as I am barely able to use hangen successfully...

I do advice everyone to grip the pommel... seems Lenny did that. What's the talking about "Hong Kong" in that clip <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ?

Also a suggestion here : Try to practise some walk back counter than having every bout to have both guys crashed in, more on timing and distining will be nice too... be sure to try out one handed strike from longsword if you want some reach advantage...

Best regards,
Alfred
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